224/224 Cam? Or should I look elsewhere?

[qwic87gn]

I've done as much research on the 224/224 in this forum as I could, and am still undecided.

This is what I'm putting together; girdled 109 stroker(3.625 stroke), with either 6" rods or the 6.350(waiting to see if the larger will have problems), ported irons, and a PT70 P trim, art carr "N" stall.

Will the 224/224 be more than what I need? If this is a good choice, what ratio of rockers for this cam? 1.60's or 1.65's? I know the 218/218 has been plenty fast for many people, but I am tired of "re-upgrading". The goal of the car is low tens with the iron heads.

Thanks

 

[Louie L.]

I know the move has been to go for bigger and bigger cams in the 109 block. But I went 10s with a PTE 210-210 and 9s with a PTE 214-214.with alum heads.There wasnt much difference between the 2 and i could have gone 9.9x with the 210.

My bud went easy 10.60s with a 206-206 with iron heads. He upgraded to a 218-218 from DLS and the car certainly woke up going 10 ohs at 135,iron heads ,PT67.

So with all that being said...I would go with a 218 from DLS for your goals. You wont have to upgrade anytime soon.

 

[83ttypecooled]

Hi,
Full Race, huh? Since I'm a street bum,there's not a lot of purpose to this conversation. Have fun, stick with the 109, don't blow it up,if you can help it!

 

[qwic87gn]

Louie, thank you for your response, I know that bigger is not always better for a turbo motor, but my main concern is the restriction of the iron heads. Would the 224 make up for that, or not make a difference. These are things I don't know first hand. I don't see alot of iron head cars going low tens without a big cam or turbo.

83ttypecooled, I don't drive the car much anymore, and when I do, I want the car to impress me everytime. I'm not much of a track guy, I like the streets as well :biggrin: For as much as I've beat that car, it deserves these things, even though the new wife might disagree...

 

[Louie L.]

The car mentioned above went 10ohs at 135 MPH with ported champion irons out of the box. Sure they dont flow like a set of Ported alums... but low 10s on irons can be had with out the big cam.

 

[Jerryl]

According to RJC, 218/218 with the 1.6's should be ok for 10's with some other supporting mods.

 

[norbs]

i would go for the 224 as you have a larger ci motor it will make more power with less knock on the street. The cyl pressure is very high with the smaller cams.

 

[Scott231]

This is what I'm putting together; girdled 109 stroker(3.625 stroke), with either 6" rods or the 6.350(waiting to see if the larger will have problems), ported irons, and a PT70 P trim, art carr "N" stall.

With the longer rods, you will need custom pistons. There are plenty of positives with longer rods, it is just a question of spending the extra coin on pistons...the only downside.

Will the 224/224 be more than what I need? If this is a good choice, what ratio of rockers for this cam? 1.60's or 1.65's? I know the 218/218 has been plenty fast for many people, but I am tired of "re-upgrading". The goal of the car is low tens with the iron heads.

Question #1: Are you going to run aftermarket (wide band aware) engine management? If not, you are going to be in a world of hurt chasing the right chip with that big of a setup.

1.60s, 1.65s...whatever it takes The difference is minimal, more lift means a larger amount of air being available. Engines are nothing but air pumps... Just don't go over 1.65s on iron heads.

With the non-roller 218 I had in my motor, I wasn't able to go much beyond mid-10's at TSM weight (3,550). A roller 224 got me into the low tens without pushing the car too hard. BTW, I have that 224/244 roller cam and timing setup for sale.

 

[TurboTnZ06]

I'm running an old PTE 210/210 billet hyd roller on bowl ported only stock iron heads and a little V4 I/C and TE45a. I trap 125-127 in the 1/4 mile at 3550#'s. 0.035 over bore 109 block with billet mains. Only 24-27#'s boost, so there's more boost I can run if I want, stock ecm, stock ignition and stock 205,000 mile rockers.

 

[norbs]

Those stock rockers days are numberered, you will break the shafts if you take it near 5500rpm in a short number of runs. Depending on your spring pressure also, higher the less life also. I would go with the 1.6 rocker max, as you don;t want to get into clearance problems, with springs and valve guide seals as the higher lift you put in. Make sure you have enough converter or the 224 will leave you boggy on the bottom. At least a ac 9" 3500 non lock. You better also have a wideband to tune this thing also...

 

[TurboTnZ06]

Those stock rockers days are numberered, you will break the shafts if you take it near 5500rpm in a short number of runs. Depending on your spring pressure also, higher the less life also....

Comp 941 springs here(I think that's the #, LT1 style), and the engine has seen 6400 rpm on my high mile rockers, although I'm sure I'll be in there putting in the big TA shafts one day. Made plenty of power on the dyno- hp was flat (40hp variance) from 4000-6400 with my setup. I think the shafts break when they aren't shimmed correctly and torqued down precisely with the correct length pushrods.

 

[Chris McDade]

Your heads will limit you to how much flow (air) you can get out of the motor. The bigger cam will allow you to turn the motor to higher RPM's, but iron heads are still your limited factor. Why go to the bigger cam when you don't have to. You said you want this to be a street car. 224/224 will not be street friendly. I had the 218/218 in my car and on the street with a 45A turbo it was pretty slugish. I agree with Louie, i don't think that you anything bigger than 218/218 for what you want to do.

Good Luck.

 

[qwic87gn]

I've been told to go with 218 from several people now. I wanted to hear opinions from people that had experiance with the 224 or close to it.

I'm currently running a Mafpro, but am not sure how long I will stick with it.

Thanks to all of you that had great input. I just don't want to continually upgrade and waste money, when the build is going to cost enough

 

[norbs]

The 218 will be fine, i lost 3 mph from going to a 224 to a 210, confirmed. knock is alot higher on the 210 on the street for the same boost level, but torque is up in the midrange alot more. So if you want to go something in between maybe your best choice

 

[top gun]

I went 9.23 @ 147+ with more left using a DLS 218/218, How fast do you want to go???

 

[HellOnWheels]

I'm running the CC 224 roller with 1:65 rockers, stock iron heads ported out to max, with the intake ported to max, and matched to the heads, 1.77 intakes, 1.50 exhaust valves. TC is a 10.5" n/l stalled at 32-3400 rpms. It is VERY streetable, I have no complaints with driveability whatsoever.

The only track around here is a 1000'. With some tire spin, boost @19-20 (T63), trans flaring slightly on the 2-3 shift. Best et was 9.97 @108.+ mph. IMHO there is considerably more there. Flare shifting is now a thing of the past (fingers crossed), I just have to find the time to get to the track.

I'm no expert but I talk from over 2 years experience with the 224.

HOW

 

[c&cgn]

Many smart, and fast guys have given you good advise. Not sure I can add much to it other than my experience with a small cam.

I am running 10.40 @ nearly 130 mph with a 214 - 210 roller and ported irons. I am sure a 218 is plenty, and would bet that you would be disappointed with the 224 on the street. I am sure a 218 from DLS will get you what you are looking for.

 

[VadersV6]

Lots of duration is ok as long as you dont go with a grind that uses a close lobe (high overlap) to get there. On a high winding N/A motor, overlap is fine (if you have the compression), but on a turbo motor, you're pumping a bunch of fresh O2 and fuel right through the cylinder and into the exhaust. The only way to get the duration with a wide lobe and low overlap is to close the intake valve later, further past BDC, which bleeds off alot of cylinder pressure at low rpm's on an N/A motor. But a turbo will keep pumping more air into the cylinder as long as the valve is open. So dont concern yourself with duration as much as you should concern yourself with valve timing...overlap, and when the intake valve closes. You can have a 230 degree cam that peaks power at 5800, or a 230 that peaks at 7k. It all depends on the valve timing. A general rule of thumb is to raise the powerband 500rpm for every 10 degrees added duration. Depending on the valve timing though, that may change to 300rpm or 700rpm, as a rough example. I would try and keep overlap close to the stock specs, which will also increase your chances of passing smog, and it will fatten up the torque curve...which reduces the stall speed you need. It will keep the cam from being too peaky. Something you dont want. Does anyone know how much overlap you have with the stock TR cam? When it comes to power, all the power is in the heads and turbo. The wrong turbo or heads may cost you 150hp, while choosing the wrong cam may cost you 40. So dont sweat it too much.

 

[bird]

im running pte 210/210 with .475 lift. stock block, unported gn1's. 70 p-trim turbo. fully optioned street car. 3600lbs. its all about the right combination. although if i was too build a stroker i would go with the 218.

 

[JPN800]

Are you going roller or flat tappet? i had the 224/224 flat tappet in my car for 50 miles and it made great power. so much power that we spun a bearing while tuning the DFI But i did like it for the short time it was in my car. it is now for sale as my new motor is a roller.