Affordable Wide Band

bruce

Rest In Peace
Joined
May 25, 2001
Well, I got a new WB from bnecustoms today.
It uses the Bosch sensor.

Hooking it up was a matter of grafting on a cigarette lighter adapter, screwing it in, and plugging the cables together. Actual installation time for everything was less then 30 mins..

The GN is being GN today, and not cooperating with a Gen VI so rather then arm wrestle everything today, I installed the WB in my truck. 91 3/4t 454. I'd been doing some chips for it, and had been running my DIY-WB on it for the last couple months, so I have a pretty good idea where the fuel AFRs are. Being open loop calibration, I have the AFRs set all over the place, and the BNE unit seems to be really if not dead on close.
And it's almost Instant On.

Now the trick is if the heater circuit is right, and doesn't kill the sensor.
Being's it's on my primary vehicle, it'll get a bit of a work out, quickly. When I get the GN cooperating again, then I'll swap it over to it, where I have several WB bungs and can test it in series with a known.

For using this in leiu of the stock sensor takes a few bits of wiring, and for the moment I don't have the time and energy to splice into the truck harness to see how well it compares to the stock sensor. But, shortly I'll get around to doing the splice, and doing a closed loop chip, and see where we are.

To be REALLY nitpicky,
The red LED display will seem dim in bright light.
The update rate, on the LED display is almost too fast.
It also displays AFR to .xx so there is alot of allmost flickering the display changes so much.

If the sensor lasts, for the price this looks to be a winner.

I don't mean to harp on this heater control subject, but I got stung, when I bought a WB that wasn't right. To some $50-60 might not seem like alot, but to me, that's enough to matter.

I'll be updating this thread as events develope.
Cheers

www.bnecustoms.com
 
While not quite freezing last night, it was cold and wet this morning. Which is a one good test for the heater system in a WB. And so far it's doing well.

It's mounted under the cab, so it gets the full effect of the environment on how weather resistant the connectors are, and they made it thought the coffee run in the rain this morning.

80 yesterday, and 40 today, yikes.
 
Bruce, how about their AutoMeter Narrowband to Wideband Gauge Converter? Is there any value to that, or does it lack any useful resolution?

Thanks for the product testing. :)
 
Bruce, if the wideband were to eventually get worked into the stock ecm via a chip, would Bob Bailey have to update the scanmaster or would the chip be able to send volts or an AFR to the scanmaster to read?

Bruce honestly now,
Are you looking forward to being one of the guys who helped kill off buying the Tech Edge? ;)
 
Originally posted by b4black
Bruce, how about their AutoMeter Narrowband to Wideband Gauge Converter? Is there any value to that, or does it lack any useful resolution?
Thanks for the product testing. :)

While you can guestimate an AFR off of the stock sensor, it's only a guess. The stock ones are effected by EGT, and back pressure. If you make a change when tuning and it changes the EGT, you have no idea if indicated AFR is from the AFR change or EGT, or how much of which was caused by what. It's really hard to tune that way. Not to mention that if your running out of fuel pump, and change toward rich might actually lean the motor. Then without really knowing what you did, you might get to do headgaskets.
 
Originally posted by DR.BOOSTER
Bruce, if the wideband were to eventually get worked into the stock ecm via a chip, would Bob Bailey have to update the scanmaster or would the chip be able to send volts or an AFR to the scanmaster to read?

Bruce honestly now,
Are you looking forward to being one of the guys who helped kill off buying the Tech Edge? ;)

That would be a bunch of work.
If you mean to read the WB directly into the ecm. You'd find one of the unused I/O inputs, and then have the code refer to that, then store that somewhere, after the conversion, and the use a RAM location to store it and then incorporate it into the ALDL stream. Plus the output varies from the Bosch to Honda versions as far as I can tell. That's alot of work.

TE's made their own bed. I could care less what they do.
 
Originally posted by bruce
While you can guestimate an AFR off of the stock sensor, it's only a guess.

I was presuming that the converter wouldn't use a stock lamda sensor. It would seem to me a "narrowband to wideband" would utilize a wibeband sensor and converter it to output the autometer gauge could display.

If it uses a stock sensor, I'm not sure what it converts. :confused:
 
Bruce,
Just got back from the SEMA show and bought one of these
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/lm1.php
I mentioned screwing it in place of the stock sensor, and the guy told me no way. He said it needs to run cooler or the readings will be wacked. He said put it as far down the downpipe as possible. Does this sound correct? Are you doing your testing at the stock location or otherwise?
Thanks,
 
Originally posted by Scott Atk
Bruce,
Just got back from the SEMA show and bought one of these
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/lm1.php
I mentioned screwing it in place of the stock sensor, and the guy told me no way. He said it needs to run cooler or the readings will be wacked. He said put it as far down the downpipe as possible. Does this sound correct? Are you doing your testing at the stock location or otherwise?
Thanks,

The Innovate is a nice unit. I will soon be carrying that line also. I will have to talk to the manufacturor of the Wide Band that I am carrying now to get the price down. The price differenc of $50 is not enough considering the advantages of the Innovate unit. I will still carry the one (PLX Devices) that I carry now. They both serve their purposes (price differences).

I do not see why the wide band sensor can not be put in the stock location. The sensor can take it no problem.

One interesting fact that I found out at SEMA was the the Innovate unit has 2 0-5v ouputs that are FULLY PROGRAMMABLE. I think that Bruce would have a field day with that!! Bruce might be getting one of those to test in the near future also.

As for the PLX Devices unit that I sell right now, we installed in in our SR20DET powered 240sx. It worked great on both 4 hour trips. To Las Vegas and Back. That leads me to believe that the heater circuit in this one is built pretty well.:)
 
Originally posted by Scott Atk
Bruce,
Just got back from the SEMA show and bought one of these
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/lm1.php
I mentioned screwing it in place of the stock sensor, and the guy told me no way. He said it needs to run cooler or the readings will be wacked. He said put it as far down the downpipe as possible. Does this sound correct? Are you doing your testing at the stock location or otherwise?
Thanks,

good question! i know when i dynoed my car they tried to hook the 02 up to the tailpipe but i was running open dump so they hooked it up there.
 
Originally posted by b4black
I was presuming that the converter wouldn't use a stock lamda sensor. It would seem to me a "narrowband to wideband" would utilize a wibeband sensor and converter it to output the autometer gauge could display.

If it uses a stock sensor, I'm not sure what it converts. :confused:

Ahh, I misunderstood what you said the first time around.
Ya, I guess you could. But, it adds one more layer of complexity. The display is nice as is. If your on a budget, or anyone else, you'll just be using the WB for tuning, and take it out for normal driving.
 
Originally posted by Scott Atk
Bruce,
Just got back from the SEMA show and bought one of these
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/lm1.php
I mentioned screwing it in place of the stock sensor, and the guy told me no way. He said it needs to run cooler or the readings will be wacked. He said put it as far down the downpipe as possible. Does this sound correct? Are you doing your testing at the stock location or otherwise?
Thanks,

Seems odd to me.
It's the only WB I've heard of where they specifically mention doing that.

generally on the trubo cars, you have 1.3-12.0 as much backpressure as boost, so backpressure can skew the readings. After all 20 PSI will get you almost 30 PSI of exhaust back pressure and that's enough to concern anyone.

For easy access I have my addition bungs welded back at what would be the end of the catalytic converter. That way even if hot I can work on things, and just loop the wire thru the door opening for quick testing.
 
Originally posted by Taffy
The Innovate is a nice unit. I will soon be carrying that line also. I will have to talk to the manufacturor of the Wide Band that I am carrying now to get the price down. The price differenc of $50 is not enough considering the advantages of the Innovate unit. I will still carry the one (PLX Devices) that I carry now. They both serve their purposes (price differences).

I do not see why the wide band sensor can not be put in the stock location. The sensor can take it no problem.

As for the PLX Devices unit that I sell right now, we installed in in our SR20DET powered 240sx. It worked great on both 4 hour trips. To Las Vegas and Back. That leads me to believe that the heater circuit in this one is built pretty well.:)

I got talking to a friend of mine yesterday that's running the innovative, and while he likes it the display is kinda slow. But, when your data logging the makes moot that issue. The data logging feature is nice.....

Takes time to see if the heater is right. The sensor probe, can take some abuse, but long term is when things have to be really correct.
 
Originally posted by Scott Atk
Bruce,
Just got back from the SEMA show and bought one of these
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/lm1.php
I mentioned screwing it in place of the stock sensor, and the guy told me no way. He said it needs to run cooler or the readings will be wacked. He said put it as far down the downpipe as possible. Does this sound correct? Are you doing your testing at the stock location or otherwise?
Thanks,

Scott,
I got this off a RX7 site, http://www.rx7club.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=227021
where they have been doing a lot of testing of the Innovate unit.


"Regarding new LM-1 firmware and overheat issues:

Yes, the new firmware allows the LM-1 to use the sensor in much hotter conditions.

HOWEVER!!!

After many tests and beta results from customers we have concluded that we just cannot get around the laws of physics (which don't have loopholes ).
The fact does not change that the sensor IS overheating in some applications. The 1.23 firmware masks that by allowing the LM-1 to work with an overheated sensor. This can put the lifetime of the sensor at risk. Although the sensor (as of now) can be had for a fairly low price, we don't want to risk it, we rather take the heat (pun intended). A cooler location, a longer bung and a heat-sink/shield are better solutions.
Interrestingly enough, we have many customers with professional race-cars (NASCAR, sprint cars, dragsters and Bonneville record cars). Not a single one of those customers reported overheating issues AFAIK. I seems that those cars, set up by professional tuners and fairly large budgets, are more efficient in converting the heat energy from the fuel into mechanical energy and thus have lower exhaust temperatures.

Regards,
Klaus"

Apparantly they are still working on the issue.

Paul
 
Originally posted by 87gn-newbee
any updates Bruce?

I've had it freeze during warm-up a couple times now.
But, I think that maybe an issue with the PWM late modle alternator that may voltage spike it momentarily. Turning it off and on instantly clears the frozen screen.
In freezing temps, the cabling gets stiff.

Both, IMO, are nitpics.
So far, so good is all I can say.
 
We found that you can take the narrow band output from the unit and send it to the ECM in place of the stock sensor. Seems to work great so far!
 
From the DIY site:

Regarding the placement of the sensor, I read the following:

Wideband Sensor Positioning
The wideband sensor must be carefully placed in order to prevent damage to the sensor itself and to maximise accuracy. Also, if you use the sensor's output directly (via the simulated narrowband output) to drive your ECU then you should be doubly careful. Please follow all of these "rules" :

The sensor should always be placed on the engine side of a catalytic converter, unless you are testing the effectiveness of the convertor itself.
The gas temperature to the sensor should never exceed 850 degrees C (about 1560 degrees Fahrenheit).
The sensor should never be run without power to the WB unit (a hot sensor burns off carbon residues)
Always have the long axis of the sensor perpendicular to the gas flow (stops sensor clogging)
Position the sensor vertically or at most between 10 o'clock to the 2 o'clock position (this avoids cracking the internal ceramic structure should moisture condense internally)
We don't recommend using a short sections of exhaust pipe shoved up your tailpipe. A specially welded additional bung is the best mounting strategy.
The sensor reads the partial pressure of gases in the exhaust and infers the AFR, rather than by measuring some magical AFR directly. This may be an issue on forced induction, and in particular, on turbo-charged engines.

AFRs will indicate richer than they are, causing you to run leaner than you think.
Lean AFR's will be richer (or less lean) than indicted.

Back to changin valve springs...
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 
Re: From the DIY site:

Originally posted by Chuck Leeper
Regarding the placement of the sensor, I read the following:
........

Back to changin valve springs...
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Huh?
 
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