Intercooler
New Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
Re: Re: From the DIY site:
Its a Chuck thing..... you have to know him to understand
Affordable Wide Band
- Thread starter bruce
- Start date
Re: From the DIY site:
Does that mean the bosch sensor in particular? How are other people using it with positive results if it's actually only a guesstimate of the AFR?
I'm about to pull my hair out trying to decide which WB setup is the way to go. I just bought my T-type and was told by the previous owner that the best way to tune is to read o2 mV reported by scanmaster.. well, i'm not about to depend on what a narrowband sensor says.
This Innovative product seems like a very logical way to go, especially for just a little more than the M-300. Am I missing something?
Does that mean the bosch sensor in particular? How are other people using it with positive results if it's actually only a guesstimate of the AFR?
I'm about to pull my hair out trying to decide which WB setup is the way to go.
I just bought my T-type and was told by the previous owner that the best way to tune is to read o2 mV reported by scanmaster.. well, i'm not about to depend on what a narrowband sensor says.This Innovative product seems like a very logical way to go, especially for just a little more than the M-300. Am I missing something?
malibuick231
Member
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2002
I have had a lm1 for two months and out of the that time it has worked about 4 hours keep getting a error code 8.Innovate says the sencor body is getting too hot.I have done every thing they have told me to and it still doesnt work.If it were me I would use the fjo w/d band more money but I guess you get what you pay for.
- Joined
- May 28, 2001
Don't they have a shield that's used to help avoid this problem??
I thot I remember reading it on the website.
Also, given what the folks at DIY are saying about temps, are you installing it in the stock Buick header location?? If so, moving it a foot down the downpipe will cool it off considerably... [what most of the FAST users do, including me]
Taffy, today it's back to porting the HEMI heads!!!
Some statments made in this post have made me curious. Like EGT and pressure srcewing with your o2 readings on a narrow band o2. Also in this post people talk about fast systems and moving the WB o2 sensor to the down pipe. Now heres my question. Can you move a narrow band o2 to the DP? Would this work? If it would or wouldnt work could some one tell me why?
TIA: Jason
TIA: Jason
A narrow band is only to sense richer or leaner then 14.7, and in oem form does nothing at WOT.
Your only playing with fire by trying to tune with a NB. I've actually run several sensors at a time, and a NB that's reading 830mv, can be anything from 12.5 to 11.5 actual AFR. That's hardly worth bothering with for tryin to accurately guage your AFR.
Yes, it will work, but it won't change the inherant problem that the oem is designed to just switch from indicating rich to lean. And you might have to use a heated 3 wire of the exhaust to too cold to get the sensor to work.
malibuick231
Member
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2002
Chuck I had it 12in away from the turbo in the down pipe they told me to move it about 5 ft away.So I did that and it still done the same thing.The last time I called them they said to put a shield on it.I havent tried that yet.They also have the rpm converter out for a $100 so that will be nice for data logging if I can keep it working.
WB
My LM1 works great with the sensor 1 foot after the turbo. hmmm. But I run rich + alky so my EGT's might be lower than the racers here.
The sensor temperature thing is a shortcoming of the sensor, not the WB unit. The Innovate guys chose to be very strict with their accuracy spec and display an error when the sensor goes out of range (The Bosch LA3 does this also, and it costs thousands...)
Other units still display, the reading is innacurate when the sensor gets too hot, but they don't alert you...
I don't know which is better....
BTW, how are the analog out connections made on the PLX? On the Innovate its a 3.5mm stereo phone plug
My LM1 works great with the sensor 1 foot after the turbo. hmmm. But I run rich + alky so my EGT's might be lower than the racers here.
The sensor temperature thing is a shortcoming of the sensor, not the WB unit. The Innovate guys chose to be very strict with their accuracy spec and display an error when the sensor goes out of range (The Bosch LA3 does this also, and it costs thousands...)
Other units still display, the reading is innacurate when the sensor gets too hot, but they don't alert you...
I don't know which is better....
BTW, how are the analog out connections made on the PLX? On the Innovate its a 3.5mm stereo phone plug
I bought 1/2 the Innovate WB with a Mustang buddy. His car is a 93 with twin turbos. He had installed the sensor in the stock O2 bungs on the factory H-pipe (about where your feet rest). I'd guess these are 4-5' from the turbo in 2.5" pipe. He's had problems overheating the sensor since we got the system. We are going to try putting the sensor in the balance tube between the H pipe to get it out of the exhaust steam a little. It really sounds like Innovate wants the sensor as far down stream as possible, but it needs to be in at least a couple of feet from the tailpipe exit. Thats all I can add. He lost his engine at the end of the year, and I didn't drive my Turbo Buick at all this year.
What is a shield? Does it go in the pipe to knock down some of the flow to the sensor?
What is a shield? Does it go in the pipe to knock down some of the flow to the sensor?
- Joined
- May 28, 2001
Shield??
Actually the shield is a heatsink. It's a piece of copper sheeting w/ a hole the size of the sensor threads in it. You put it on the sensor and then bend the "wings" up to get them away from the pipe. This is supposed to sink the heat away from the sensor,
and allow it to function w/o setting a code..
A more accurate description is on the website..
HTH,
Actually the shield is a heatsink. It's a piece of copper sheeting w/ a hole the size of the sensor threads in it. You put it on the sensor and then bend the "wings" up to get them away from the pipe. This is supposed to sink the heat away from the sensor,
and allow it to function w/o setting a code..
A more accurate description is on the website..
HTH,
- Joined
- May 28, 2001
Some more interesting "stuff"
The Bosch site says the heater volts must control the heater to 750c. This is done w/ voltage control??
The DIY site has a chart showing the pressure change effects on the sensor output signal. Is this why the turbo and blower cars have a possible problem w/ accuracy??
What about the volts being forced out of range, and the sensor being over heated if the car has a voltbooster on it, and the system sees 15-16volts?? Can the volt reg to the sensor control it?? According the Bosch site, it's supposed to be 9vdc to the heater. The DIY site says 10......
Oh well, I'm digitally, genetically,mechanically, electronically, challenged, and will leave this to those that can "figger" it out..
The Bosch site says the heater volts must control the heater to 750c. This is done w/ voltage control??
The DIY site has a chart showing the pressure change effects on the sensor output signal. Is this why the turbo and blower cars have a possible problem w/ accuracy??
What about the volts being forced out of range, and the sensor being over heated if the car has a voltbooster on it, and the system sees 15-16volts?? Can the volt reg to the sensor control it?? According the Bosch site, it's supposed to be 9vdc to the heater. The DIY site says 10......
Oh well, I'm digitally, genetically,mechanically, electronically, challenged, and will leave this to those that can "figger" it out..
Chuck, I'm positive that the lm1 controls the sensor temperature with a feedback circuit, so it varies the heater voltage to maintain constant temperature (and also ramps up the temp slowly to keep it from cracking at startup). That means it should be immune to moderate supply voltage changes. I don't know if I've ever seen a max input voltage spec on the lm1, though - they may not have anticipated 16 V race car systems and voltboosters. As for pressure, you are right, high pressure will cause the sensor to show too lean if lean of stoich and too rich if rich of stoich. I think Klaus went over this a little in the scan tool thread.
Well, welded the bung into a friend's test pipe 3" in front of the cat flange and did about an hour's worth of tuning tonight. Okay, did about 10 seconds worth of tuning and 59:50 worth of playing . It's neat. Right now we only have the O2, no rpm or tps input. Hit the record button, started ds logging, and then did launches to see why we have a stumble. It was pretty easy to tell in the wb log when we hit it because there was a blip upwards in afr from 14 or so up to 16, for about a second, then down to way rich 9.5. His narrowband O2 is dying from lead and I was trying to bandaid the stumble with more pe fuel instead of going into the ae tables - these are Delphi injectors and the only big injectors I've tuned so far are Siemans and these are way different on the bottom end. I could see the lean tip in on ds but the o2 has lost so much range that the O2's only got up to about 750 mV when the wb said 9.5! I knew I was too rich but went with the O2's at first just to see where they would lead. This stuff is fun!
I did have a lot of trouble getting a connection to the serial port to upload the data to my laptop. I'm running w95 on an old ibm thinkpad 760xl, and many times the software would say "connect device and turn on", then hang forever. I'm still not sure what magic incantation let it work. Oh, it can record for what, 44 minutes (?) at 12 frames per second, and you can just hit the record button to stop and start recording as many times as you want. When you upload the data, each recording event is a separate "session" so you don't have just one long record to scan through and guess when you stopped and started. I'm not sure w95 is really supported or not - I may need to install the w98se I have laying around after upgrading my desktop to xp pro since ds will still work okay with that.
I'm going to ask Santa for the rpm input cable and put a bung on my car Real Soon Now (tm) (for you old Jerry Pournelle fans). It is real awkward sitting in the passenger seat with y-socket in the cigarette lighter, inverter on floor, laptop on lap plugged into that and parallel port a/b switch to the ds cable, lm1 plugged into y-socket and serial port on pc and cable out window to sensor sitting on the console or lap, pocket programmer plugged into inverter and a/b switch, and ecm on floor with ds cable and cable to remote chip box with flash ram chip on the console next to the lm1. After I sat down it took a good two minutes to plug everything in, with the driver handing me each piece to add to the pile . There's got to be a better way.
No heat sink on sensor but we are way downstream of turbo and only made three wot passes to about 75 mph. No problems with sensor overheating.
About all you can do in the software is drag a slider through the data while looking at the afr number and time in a box below the graph. With more inputs there would be more lines, which is good but can be confusing. I would like the option of separate graphs like the scope display in ds. Also, it would be nice to use the left and right arrows to step through the data instead of having to drag the slider.
It's not clear from the manual if the o2 sensor is kept heated while the lm1 is in serial mode. We kept the engine idling for a few minutes to keep the heat on, and then realized that we might be hurting the sensor since it will quickly foul if you run the engine with the sensor cold. Didn't seem to hurt it but gave me a scare, sigh.
Well, those are my first impressions. After some more use I'm sure I'll get the connect problem licked and I'll post some more observations.
. It's neat. Right now we only have the O2, no rpm or tps input. Hit the record button, started ds logging, and then did launches to see why we have a stumble. It was pretty easy to tell in the wb log when we hit it because there was a blip upwards in afr from 14 or so up to 16, for about a second, then down to way rich 9.5. His narrowband O2 is dying from lead and I was trying to bandaid the stumble with more pe fuel instead of going into the ae tables - these are Delphi injectors and the only big injectors I've tuned so far are Siemans and these are way different on the bottom end. I could see the lean tip in on ds but the o2 has lost so much range that the O2's only got up to about 750 mV when the wb said 9.5! I knew I was too rich but went with the O2's at first just to see where they would lead. This stuff is fun!I did have a lot of trouble getting a connection to the serial port to upload the data to my laptop. I'm running w95 on an old ibm thinkpad 760xl, and many times the software would say "connect device and turn on", then hang forever. I'm still not sure what magic incantation let it work. Oh, it can record for what, 44 minutes (?) at 12 frames per second, and you can just hit the record button to stop and start recording as many times as you want. When you upload the data, each recording event is a separate "session" so you don't have just one long record to scan through and guess when you stopped and started. I'm not sure w95 is really supported or not - I may need to install the w98se I have laying around after upgrading my desktop to xp pro since ds will still work okay with that.
I'm going to ask Santa for the rpm input cable and put a bung on my car Real Soon Now (tm) (for you old Jerry Pournelle fans
). It is real awkward sitting in the passenger seat with y-socket in the cigarette lighter, inverter on floor, laptop on lap plugged into that and parallel port a/b switch to the ds cable, lm1 plugged into y-socket and serial port on pc and cable out window to sensor sitting on the console or lap, pocket programmer plugged into inverter and a/b switch, and ecm on floor with ds cable and cable to remote chip box with flash ram chip on the console next to the lm1. After I sat down it took a good two minutes to plug everything in, with the driver handing me each piece to add to the pile . There's got to be a better way.No heat sink on sensor but we are way downstream of turbo and only made three wot passes to about 75 mph. No problems with sensor overheating.
About all you can do in the software is drag a slider through the data while looking at the afr number and time in a box below the graph. With more inputs there would be more lines, which is good but can be confusing. I would like the option of separate graphs like the scope display in ds. Also, it would be nice to use the left and right arrows to step through the data instead of having to drag the slider.
It's not clear from the manual if the o2 sensor is kept heated while the lm1 is in serial mode. We kept the engine idling for a few minutes to keep the heat on, and then realized that we might be hurting the sensor since it will quickly foul if you run the engine with the sensor cold. Didn't seem to hurt it but gave me a scare, sigh.
Well, those are my first impressions. After some more use I'm sure I'll get the connect problem licked and I'll post some more observations.
Six_Silver
New Member
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2003
ijames
Thank you for the very informative post! Did you compare WOT A/F on the Wideband to the O2mv's on the stock O2 sensor? Im curious how much this number differed at WOT.
Thanks again, and PLEASE keep us posted!
Thank you for the very informative post!
Did you compare WOT A/F on the Wideband to the O2mv's on the stock O2 sensor? Im curious how much this number differed at WOT. Thanks again, and PLEASE keep us posted!
BoostKillsStres
TIRE-FRYER VIA HAIR-DRYER
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
Sure he did, its in the first paragraph of his post. O2 mv were totally non usable as a tuning aid for A/F reference as has been posted by me and many other wideband users. YRMV
Six_Silver
New Member
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2003
BoostKillsStress, I thought he was talking about the tip-in stumble O2's, not WOT. The 750mV/9.5afr was at WOT?
BoostKillsStres
TIRE-FRYER VIA HAIR-DRYER
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
Ah true, my bad, maybe I should've reread the first paragraph
Nahh, my bad - I talk too much . What we were doing was stomping it from a dead idle. The O2's would drop at first for a second or so then shoot up to about 750 mV, so this 750 was a wot number just not at full boost and high rpm. Even at 5000 rpm in 2nd they were still only 780. With the wb the initial drop was about 15:1 or so and the 750 mV turned out to be 9-9.5 and the 780 about 9.5-10, but remember this sensor was really really lead poisoned. Even so rich the engine was literally blubbering I could never get the O2's over 800 mV. I'm curious to see what I see when I get this on my car which has never seen lead. I mildly disagree that the stock O2 sensor is useless since I've developed chips for 3 different injector sizes so far using it as my primary tuning indicator (you just have to be slow and careful and reallize that it is only one indicator, not a holy grail), but I violently agree that the wb is better.
More to come soon.
. What we were doing was stomping it from a dead idle. The O2's would drop at first for a second or so then shoot up to about 750 mV, so this 750 was a wot number just not at full boost and high rpm. Even at 5000 rpm in 2nd they were still only 780. With the wb the initial drop was about 15:1 or so and the 750 mV turned out to be 9-9.5 and the 780 about 9.5-10, but remember this sensor was really really lead poisoned. Even so rich the engine was literally blubbering I could never get the O2's over 800 mV. I'm curious to see what I see when I get this on my car which has never seen lead. I mildly disagree that the stock O2 sensor is useless since I've developed chips for 3 different injector sizes so far using it as my primary tuning indicator (you just have to be slow and careful and reallize that it is only one indicator, not a holy grail), but I violently agree that the wb is better.More to come soon.
