Final Octane when mixing

[Jerryl]

Well, there are quite a few people making the switch, or mixing E-85 and/or other higher octane fuels.
I always wondered what the octane is when you mix and how much boost.
I located the actual file on GNTTYPE for mixing Octane Mixing

But what if you only wanted 10%, 20%, 30%, 40%, 50%, etc MIX?
How much of "Each fuel" would you need to put in the tank, how much octane and boost?

Anyway, this all started in an attempt to help out a local friend, so he would not keep changing his mix each time he gets to the pump.
Just needed to give him a GUIDELINE on "how much" of each fuel!
This does NOT take into account cooling effect, etc, etc.
Need someone like Sir John Estill or Dr. IJames to get that deep!
Let me know what you think.

 

[novaderrik]

my local E85 staion has a blend pump that has different buttons for different blends from 20% to 85% ethanol. i think they even have an octane rating above each button, as well.
but i haven't had the T Type on the road since they got that pump installed a couple of months ago..

personally, i've always tried to put an equal amount of gas and E85 in to get me a 50/50 mix- but it can be kind of tricky, with the blend fluctuating either way. one solution would be to buy equal amounts of each fuel in separate containers, and blend it that way.

 

[MrMNTTA]

my local E85 staion has a blend pump that has different buttons for different blends from 20% to 85% ethanol. i think they even have an octane rating above each button, as well.
but i haven't had the T Type on the road since they got that pump installed a couple of months ago..

personally, i've always tried to put an equal amount of gas and E85 in to get me a 50/50 mix- but it can be kind of tricky, with the blend fluctuating either way. one solution would be to buy equal amounts of each fuel in separate containers, and blend it that way.

Everything you say is true - but, you are "mis-fueling", which is illegal. Keep that in mind, and good luck!

 

[novaderrik]

Everything you say is true - but, you are "mis-fueling", which is illegal. Keep that in mind, and good luck!

it can't be that illegal...
i've only ever had one person at a gas station tell me that he couldn't sell me the E85 for my car.. after i had already pumped 10 gallons in my car and was standing at the cash register trying to pay for it.
i just told him that since he couldn't sell it to me, that he either had to go out and siphon the stuff out of my car or let me have it for free.. he eventually allowed me to pay for it. that was back in 2004- the very first time i put E85 in my car. i think i paid like $1.00 a gallon for it.
ahh, the good old days...

 

[Jerryl]

Everything you say is true - but, you are "mis-fueling", which is illegal. Keep that in mind, and good luck!

Can you explain why, and cite the std?

 

[mygn276]

Everything you say is true - but, you are "mis-fueling", which is illegal. Keep that in mind, and good luck!

 

[MrMNTTA]

Can you explain why, and cite the std?

Sure, no problem, I did a quick search and found this article for you:

Beginning of the Blender Pumps - Ethanol Producer Magazine

In order to use an ethanol blended fuel greater than 10%, your vehicle must be "flex-fuel" compatible, otherwise it's against the law to 'misfuel'.

 

[Jerryl]

Sure, no problem, I did a quick search and found this article for you:

Beginning of the Blender Pumps - Ethanol Producer Magazine

In order to use an ethanol blended fuel greater than 10%, your vehicle must be "flex-fuel" compatible, otherwise it's against the law to 'misfuel'.

Thanks for posting!
Not trying to start an argument but the ruling defies logic (as most do )
Looks like the retailer is liable? ....... And ........
I thought ethanol was "cleaner"??? .......... And ........
Exceeding the speed limit, and driving without a cat are illegal as well.

I bet the whole idea of this ruling is to ensure we do not run out of Ethanol for "Flex fuel" vehicles, and does not have much to do with the "Clean Air Act".
Anyway .........
So, all I need is a sticker that says "FlexFuel Experimental" and I am good.

Although the U.S. EPA has ruled that it’s legal to sell midlevel ethanol blends for use in flexible-fuel vehicles, it is illegal to use fuel containing more than 10 percent ethanol in standard vehicles. In a letter written to the South Dakota Petroleum and Propane Marketers Association in November 2006, Margo Tsirigotis Oge, EPA’s director of the Office of Transportation and Air Quality, wrote that while the sale of midlevel ethanol blends for use in flexible-fuel vehicles is legal, “the use of such blends in gasoline-only vehicles is prohibited under the Clean Air Act. … The retailer who has variable ethanol percentage pumps may be liable for causing such violation, whether the misfueling occurs at self-serve or full-serve pumps.”

 

[MrMNTTA]

Thanks for posting!
Not trying to start an argument but the ruling defies logic (as most do )
Looks like the retailer is liable? ....... And ........
I thought ethanol was "cleaner"??? .......... And ........
Exceeding the speed limit, and driving without a cat are illegal as well.

I bet the whole idea of this ruling is to ensure we do not run out of Ethanol for "Flex fuel" vehicles, and does not have much to do with the "Clean Air Act".
Anyway .........
So, all I need is a sticker that says "FlexFuel Experimental" and I am good.

Although the U.S. EPA has ruled that it’s legal to sell midlevel ethanol blends for use in flexible-fuel vehicles, it is illegal to use fuel containing more than 10 percent ethanol in standard vehicles. In a letter written to the South Dakota Petroleum and Propane Marketers Association in November 2006, Margo Tsirigotis Oge, EPA’s director of the Office of Transportation and Air Quality, wrote that while the sale of midlevel ethanol blends for use in flexible-fuel vehicles is legal, “the use of such blends in gasoline-only vehicles is prohibited under the Clean Air Act. … The retailer who has variable ethanol percentage pumps may be liable for causing such violation, whether the misfueling occurs at self-serve or full-serve pumps.”

Oh, don't worry about it. I'm not arguing at all, and didn't take it that anyone else was either. I agree with you, and I think it's stupid too.

I just wanted to try and help by way of informing people with the "happenings" out there.

I'm not going to guess or speculate what the idea is, or isn't, in regard to the ruling. I could care less.

And yes, ethanol certainly burns cleaner than gasoline, without question.

 

[bsdlinux]

Sure, no problem, I did a quick search and found this article for you:

Beginning of the Blender Pumps - Ethanol Producer Magazine

In order to use an ethanol blended fuel greater than 10%, your vehicle must be "flex-fuel" compatible, otherwise it's against the law to 'misfuel'.

Haha this why I take the gas cans with me so no one knows what the hell I'm doing with it :biggrin:

BTW: Be careful trying to put an "OCTANE" rating on E-85 and the various mixes thereof. Alcohol based fuels do not respond to the same octane boosters as regular " Petroleum based" gasoline. This is why they say E-85 acts like "105" but in reality has much more knock suppression capabilities than that number. There are people running boost way north of 25 psi with just E-85.. sorry but 105 gasoline will not get you there

 

[MrMNTTA]

Haha this why I take the gas cans with me so no one knows what the hell I'm doing with it :biggrin:

That is exactly what I do too :biggrin:

 

[henschman]

Sure, no problem, I did a quick search and found this article for you:

Beginning of the Blender Pumps - Ethanol Producer Magazine

In order to use an ethanol blended fuel greater than 10%, your vehicle must be "flex-fuel" compatible, otherwise it's against the law to 'misfuel'.

cool, i love engaging in civil disobediance against idiotic paternalistic laws that violate my natural rights. especially when I get a great benefit from doing so, such as being able to run lots and lots of boost!

 

[garyk1970]

can someone post up the chart...the program needed to see the charts,i dont have....

 

[Jerryl]

can someone post up the chart...the program needed to see the charts,i dont have....

Gary,
Tell me what octane pump gas and race gas and % mix you would like and I'll post a screenshot of the file.

 

[garyk1970]

Gary,
Tell me what octane pump gas and race gas and % mix you would like and I'll post a screenshot of the file.

im running 10 gallons of 93, 20 gal of e85.....my car is doing good on this mix (2nd tank) 780's 02's,17 psi....0.0 knock....
thanks....

 

[Jerryl]

im running 10 gallons of 93, 20 gal of e85.....my car is doing good on this mix (2nd tank) 780's 02's,17 psi....0.0 knock....
thanks....

Here is a screenshot.
I used a conservative 102 Octane.
I think you "should" be ab le to run 21-23 PSI with that mix, if you have enough injector and pump.

 

[garyk1970]

cool

thanks:biggrin: plenty of pump(s),not enough injector yet.......

 

[novaderrik]

im running 10 gallons of 93, 20 gal of e85.....my car is doing good on this mix (2nd tank) 780's 02's,17 psi....0.0 knock....
thanks....

you have a 30 gallon gas tank?

 

[garyk1970]

yes:biggrin: ,check out my sig for the link to my car's history. it was a dept of energy methanol test car when new.........1 of 3 left yes i drive it daily,race monthly and terrorize every mustang i can.......

 

[Hot Air]

Guys,
Be VERY careful when using the chart in GNTTYPE. It is accurate for mixing 92octane GASOLINE with racing GASOLINE. On the other hand, we are mixing ETHANOL/gasoline blend with gasoline! They are NOT the same!!! Remember, it takes 30% more ethanol to provide the same British Thermal Units (BTU's) as a gallon of gasoline. Know what you are doing and be careful!

An engine is a terrible thing to waste!

Conrad