FMIC question
- Thread starter gnkid1987
- Start date
I have been reading up on FMIC's for quite some time before making a purchase. After all it is somewhat of a big investment that most of us hope to do only once. I have talked to guys that have the Cottons, PTE, Power Stroke, and CAS units, not to mention watched track runs, and looked at installs.
After 6 months of research and thinking, I decided to go with the Cotton's and are extremely pleased with everything about it. It is huge and fits perfect. Everything you need is included and it's very impressive right down to the way its packed. The end tanks do not block the radiator flow, and the piping tucks under very nicely. This is one very well engineered product.
Jack Cotton is very personalble, and will take the time to answer your questions and give you some sound advice. I never felt he was trying to sell me parts. I felt very comfortable buying from him after discussing the intercooler and my goals for the car and present combination. Thanks Jack!
David
After 6 months of research and thinking, I decided to go with the Cotton's and are extremely pleased with everything about it. It is huge and fits perfect. Everything you need is included and it's very impressive right down to the way its packed. The end tanks do not block the radiator flow, and the piping tucks under very nicely. This is one very well engineered product.
Jack Cotton is very personalble, and will take the time to answer your questions and give you some sound advice. I never felt he was trying to sell me parts. I felt very comfortable buying from him after discussing the intercooler and my goals for the car and present combination. Thanks Jack!
David
Could not have said it better, love Jacks IC, fits like a glove, and absolutely fills up the front end, I have some install pics also, pending release.
Going fast with class does nor mean putting Ford parts on your GN <grin>
Do it cheap, do it first class, your choice.
I actually recommended a Power Stroke IC to a good buddy, but he owns a blown 94 Lightening, and it is a true bolt in.
I'm sure Nick has his deal thought out well and running great, but hell, I won't run a 9" either.
I thought long and hard about the FM vs the stock location, but there was never any doubt about which one, I'm pretty sure they won't repo for only one missed house payment !
Going fast with class does nor mean putting Ford parts on your GN <grin>
Do it cheap, do it first class, your choice.
I actually recommended a Power Stroke IC to a good buddy, but he owns a blown 94 Lightening, and it is a true bolt in.
I'm sure Nick has his deal thought out well and running great, but hell, I won't run a 9" either.
I thought long and hard about the FM vs the stock location, but there was never any doubt about which one, I'm pretty sure they won't repo for only one missed house payment !
I got the feeling from talking to the guys with the PS that it was definitely an econimic choice that led them in that direction. They did not sem to think it was the best performing IC but usually had procured the core at a very good price, and was an improvement over their previous stock or small FM.
- Joined
- May 26, 2001
I will say you are half right and half wrong in your statement.
It was an economic choice that let me to the PS concept. My budget can handle a Cotton's or other off-the-shelf I/C, but some of my customers, and others have a more restrictive situation. Since a PS install can be done a one-half the cost and no downside on performance, it allows an opportunity for many others up their goals.
As far as performance, I can only speak down to the 9 sec. level as this is as far as we have gathered data and have first-hand experience. The 8 sec. cars I have dealt with so far have custom I/C's, and are not applicable in this discussion.
We have also shown that a GOOD stock location I/C will perform as well as a FM down to the mid-10 range. So we a talking a narrow band of cars in the 10.5-9.0 sec range as to which FM is best?
So far we have determined that Cotton's is easier to install and he is a nice guy
, but our info shows the PS will perform as well as his.Until I am proven wrong, I stand by the PS performance is as good as Cotton's in this power range.
J
JCotton
Guest
Actually a Powerstroke is bigger!
Well Nick........ you are still watching the thread, I was wondering if you would answer my question, obviously you haven't. I've also asked a few other times in other threads for a response and you seem to not find the need to answer. Since the original question asked "what was the largest IC to fit" and you responded with the PS, can you answer my question as well?
the one with actual measurements?
It is obvious that most any IC will turn the number, BUT does that mean it's the most efficient? Guys are turning 9.80 with $6,000.00 stock block motors, why do they need to spend $15,000.00 for a TA alum. motor................ because they want the best...........they don't want to do again for the next upgrade. ICers are no different. You base your statements on running 9.80 something..... what did Dick run, what did Len run, just to name a few, and most importantly what IC were they running? In case anyone is curious, they run Cottons IC, and they ran stock blocks....... and they ran 9.70-80's I believe....
You base the performance level of the PS on having run 9.80 something, you say it's as good as a Cotton's frt mount "at that level", how do you know that? Did you hook up measuring and testing equipment, run back to back under similar conditions with both ICers and determine that? If so, great!!! If not you need to temper your statements!!
As for this topic getting off the original question, sorry, I am only responding to content related to my product. As Dave stated and others have to me, they like the idea of a cheaper, functional IC, but many did not want to "hack" up their frt end and radiator support....
Have a sparkling day.............
Well Nick........ you are still watching the thread, I was wondering if you would answer my question, obviously you haven't. I've also asked a few other times in other threads for a response and you seem to not find the need to answer. Since the original question asked "what was the largest IC to fit" and you responded with the PS, can you answer my question as well?
the one with actual measurements?
It is obvious that most any IC will turn the number, BUT does that mean it's the most efficient? Guys are turning 9.80 with $6,000.00 stock block motors, why do they need to spend $15,000.00 for a TA alum. motor................ because they want the best...........they don't want to do again for the next upgrade. ICers are no different. You base your statements on running 9.80 something..... what did Dick run, what did Len run, just to name a few, and most importantly what IC were they running? In case anyone is curious, they run Cottons IC, and they ran stock blocks....... and they ran 9.70-80's I believe....
You base the performance level of the PS on having run 9.80 something, you say it's as good as a Cotton's frt mount "at that level", how do you know that? Did you hook up measuring and testing equipment, run back to back under similar conditions with both ICers and determine that? If so, great!!! If not you need to temper your statements!!
As for this topic getting off the original question, sorry, I am only responding to content related to my product. As Dave stated and others have to me, they like the idea of a cheaper, functional IC, but many did not want to "hack" up their frt end and radiator support....
Have a sparkling day.............
Size aside, we all know the PS I/C is pretty big ,but thin.
( not the first choice with the ladies I know....)
What are the flow numbers on it ??
Pressure drop, and temperature differential ?
That is the only true way to judge the merit of the I/C, ET for wildly different combos means nothing.
The ability to flow, cool and reduce backpressure, is what counts. ( leave the marketing to the ricer crowd )
Make me a believer, might put a P/S on my beater GN
( not the first choice with the ladies I know....)
What are the flow numbers on it ??
Pressure drop, and temperature differential ?
That is the only true way to judge the merit of the I/C, ET for wildly different combos means nothing.
The ability to flow, cool and reduce backpressure, is what counts. ( leave the marketing to the ricer crowd )
Make me a believer, might put a P/S on my beater GN
To INCLUDE, Vehicle Speed. Look at the 1/8 mile speeds, from there to the end of the 1/4, the car is hustling right along. Not to mention that the engine *load* in the higher gears is higher, and the EGTs want to soar.
Good, fast, or cheap, pick 2.
There's nothing *wrong* will the PS, or the other smaller FMs, but why risk doing things twice?. IMO, if your going to start spending that mch money, why not get the biggest bang for money?.
Originally posted by GNVAIR
Not to play devil's advocate, but Red (not Red Armstrong) on here went 10.30's@130+ with a Powerstroke intercooler on his car. There are several others as well who haven't spoken up. Its not the length size or thickness, but how well it work's
If you have a good combination, you'll go fast with any intercooler providing it flows. How much you can squeeze out with extra efficency seems to be lacking solid data to date.
I think Jack has summed up the "size" difference between the two. My opinion, taking a shot at what this all really means in this thread is the powerstroke is aimed at a economical alternative in front mounts available today. I think the "Bigger" and "Better" should be aimed back at the thread that Bruce put out some good facts and tests out which he was blasted pretty good about. Why don't we all pick up on this in the spring and get some of us out there logging some runs with ALL the intercoolers and pool up the ET and MPH cars that are the closest and compare data.
I wanted to bring this post back up since there was definitely some good supporting information coming out of it.
Over the past week I have been taking measurements and doing some research on the Powerstroke intercooler. I had picked up a low mileage take off unit awhile back for about $150.
I figured for $150 I couldnt go wrong as I wanted to experiment. Now before I say anything else, I just want to say that I am just an average guy with no data loggers or other forms of measuring or providing flow #s. Then again, none of the other fmic manufacturers or suppliers have supplied any numbers other than et/mph numbers.
Before I say why I like this set up I will say that my big thing about this project was no cutting of metal on the car.
Now the things I like:
The tanks are very large and nicely tapered which is a good thing as this helps the air flowing in and out of the core. You dont want the tanks to be too shallow/small as this kills the funnelling effect of air going into the core.
It is quite obvious looking at the Powerstroke that Ford designed the tanks to be very efficient. As a matter of fact, Mercedes does theirs this way so it definitely isnt a fluke. The inlet/outlets are in the center of a tapered tank which forces air to be better dispursed and flowing through more of the tubes. A regular IC has inlet/outlet on the same "level" and forces LOTS of air through the tubes near them while short circuiting over 1/2 of the remaining tubes. A radiator has inlet/outlet at OPPOSITE corners
to help even out the distribution/flow. Just because you have a large intercooler doesnt mean that the air is getting to all of the tubes. I strongly believe that tank design as well as inlet/outlet design play a huge role in this.
People mentioned that the Powerstroke has a thin core, but I think that a 2.5" thick core is fine with the tapered tanks and centrally mounted inlets/outlets. From science class, a thinner piece of metal will absorb AND dissipate heat faster. With some creative repositioning of the inlet and outlets on the Powerstroke intercooler I can effectively make it flow even better and eliminate some bends. From my past experience with super charged applications I learned that for every 90° bend you add you lose 1lb of boost. Another big benefit of the Powerstroke in our installation, is the use of very short pipes compared to going underneath the core support. Further, and also very significant, no 180° bend and another 90° bend in each pipe, but easy 90° bends with
little flow restriction. The 180° bends are VERY restrictive.
The short pipes with fewer bends AND the increased flow in and out of the intercooler are the reasons I am extremely excited about the Powerstroke. Someone mentioned that Ford has a lot more engineering dollars to spend than the average small performance shops. They felt this was good enough for a 7.3 liter turbo charged diesel application and that it was durable enough for 100K+ miles. This adds to my confidence in the unit. The other beauty is this unit was designed to be front mounted AND to have cooling air passing through it to get to the radiator so I am confident that there will be no cooling issues with it as well. Oh yeah, and I will probably have about $300 total monetary investment plus my time (which is fun time to me) for a 9 second front mount......
Yes, I said 9 second front mount. I have a reliable source that is running this exact set up into this 9's. He also has compared it to
the CAS V-2, Precision and Cotton IC's and the final air intake temps have been at least as good (as measured with the plenum mounted MAT sensor on his FAST setup) and generally better with the Powerstroke. All the comparisons were done with comparable boost, E.T's and track temps. He also noted that engine temp was reduced about 10° after each run. Again, I am just an average guy so don't ask me to provide data numbers.
Over the past week I have been taking measurements and doing some research on the Powerstroke intercooler. I had picked up a low mileage take off unit awhile back for about $150.
I figured for $150 I couldnt go wrong as I wanted to experiment. Now before I say anything else, I just want to say that I am just an average guy with no data loggers or other forms of measuring or providing flow #s. Then again, none of the other fmic manufacturers or suppliers have supplied any numbers other than et/mph numbers.
Before I say why I like this set up I will say that my big thing about this project was no cutting of metal on the car.
Now the things I like:
The tanks are very large and nicely tapered which is a good thing as this helps the air flowing in and out of the core. You dont want the tanks to be too shallow/small as this kills the funnelling effect of air going into the core.
It is quite obvious looking at the Powerstroke that Ford designed the tanks to be very efficient. As a matter of fact, Mercedes does theirs this way so it definitely isnt a fluke. The inlet/outlets are in the center of a tapered tank which forces air to be better dispursed and flowing through more of the tubes. A regular IC has inlet/outlet on the same "level" and forces LOTS of air through the tubes near them while short circuiting over 1/2 of the remaining tubes. A radiator has inlet/outlet at OPPOSITE corners
to help even out the distribution/flow. Just because you have a large intercooler doesnt mean that the air is getting to all of the tubes. I strongly believe that tank design as well as inlet/outlet design play a huge role in this.
People mentioned that the Powerstroke has a thin core, but I think that a 2.5" thick core is fine with the tapered tanks and centrally mounted inlets/outlets. From science class, a thinner piece of metal will absorb AND dissipate heat faster. With some creative repositioning of the inlet and outlets on the Powerstroke intercooler I can effectively make it flow even better and eliminate some bends. From my past experience with super charged applications I learned that for every 90° bend you add you lose 1lb of boost. Another big benefit of the Powerstroke in our installation, is the use of very short pipes compared to going underneath the core support. Further, and also very significant, no 180° bend and another 90° bend in each pipe, but easy 90° bends with
little flow restriction. The 180° bends are VERY restrictive.
The short pipes with fewer bends AND the increased flow in and out of the intercooler are the reasons I am extremely excited about the Powerstroke. Someone mentioned that Ford has a lot more engineering dollars to spend than the average small performance shops. They felt this was good enough for a 7.3 liter turbo charged diesel application and that it was durable enough for 100K+ miles. This adds to my confidence in the unit. The other beauty is this unit was designed to be front mounted AND to have cooling air passing through it to get to the radiator so I am confident that there will be no cooling issues with it as well. Oh yeah, and I will probably have about $300 total monetary investment plus my time (which is fun time to me) for a 9 second front mount......
Yes, I said 9 second front mount. I have a reliable source that is running this exact set up into this 9's. He also has compared it to
the CAS V-2, Precision and Cotton IC's and the final air intake temps have been at least as good (as measured with the plenum mounted MAT sensor on his FAST setup) and generally better with the Powerstroke. All the comparisons were done with comparable boost, E.T's and track temps. He also noted that engine temp was reduced about 10° after each run. Again, I am just an average guy so don't ask me to provide data numbers.
J
JCotton
Guest
Very good post, now how bout you give us some real data, theory is great stuff, but, still just theory and observation..... Since you have a direct channel to your reliable source, maybe you can tell us how these numbers were amassed. Was this on the same car, with the same combo, did he actually do the testing by removing and installing each one of these ICer's or are these numbers based on the readings taken from other cars. I'm not trying to bust anyones chops here, would just like to know how these claims came about..
thanks
J
JCotton
Guest
I'm looking forward to hearing the results, if there is something that I could improve on our IC, I would make changes in a heartbeat. I have had a core on the backburner for over a year now, similar to the PS, just couldn't see offering 2 different units for close to the same pricing..... I rely on the IC core experts to do their math to give me a core that will handle the HP
Jack, dont take this the wrong way, but you couldnt do anything to your intercooler to improve it except lower the price. Price is the main reason why the Powerstrokes are becoming popular with people. As I previously stated; I can install one on my car for approx $300 including the purchase price. Savings to me (compared to the cost of yours) would be $900.
My previous post was not to bash, slander, derride or cheat anyone. As a matter of fact, most of my post was my observations and opinions. But as far as my source goes; I trust his opinion and experiences explicitly. He even admitted to me that he could sell me someone else' front mount intercooler, but he recommended that I try the Powerstroke (since I am the type of person that prefers to experiment and fabricate things). Why would any business man looking to make money recommend such a thing?
The answer is because he wanted to be honest and he also wanted more people to try them as they have worked well for him.
My previous post was not to bash, slander, derride or cheat anyone. As a matter of fact, most of my post was my observations and opinions. But as far as my source goes; I trust his opinion and experiences explicitly. He even admitted to me that he could sell me someone else' front mount intercooler, but he recommended that I try the Powerstroke (since I am the type of person that prefers to experiment and fabricate things). Why would any business man looking to make money recommend such a thing?
The answer is because he wanted to be honest and he also wanted more people to try them as they have worked well for him.
J
JCotton
Guest
Your source, is indeed an honorable man....... as I would do the same thing, in similar circumstances. As for my IC, it is what it is, unfortunately, it doesn't cost me $300 for the core, in fact the pipes alone cost $300... just the core, without elbows and end tanks are around $500, misc. top quality IC hose, between $65-$75, Tbolts clamps, hmmmmmmm, if I could put em together cheaper I would... until I find away to build cheaper without sacrificing quailty and performance, price isn't likely to change....oh ya, my welder gets $150 an IC to assemble, plus the IC elbows cost 30 each, X2. Shooooot, I'm losing money, now that explains why I just can't seem to get ahead.....
I understand completely Jack that they dont come cheaply and that a lot goes into making them.
I will never argue that you intercooler isnt a nice unit. I have seen one in person and it is very nice and fits like a glove.
We won't argue that it doesnt have the largest core that you could fit between the lights. All I am saying is that for the more mechanically inclined there are alternatives.......if one isnt afraid to get their hands dirty.
I will never argue that you intercooler isnt a nice unit. I have seen one in person and it is very nice and fits like a glove.
We won't argue that it doesnt have the largest core that you could fit between the lights. All I am saying is that for the more mechanically inclined there are alternatives.......if one isnt afraid to get their hands dirty.
