FMIC question

Get hands dirty, mech inclined ?????
I have complete fab shop at my disposal. but my time is worth something also, I get paid to fabricate and engineer, $300.00 with no hacking ???? including piping, clamps, hose ???? Doubtfull.

Sorry I don't see the savings. Maybe if I was unemployed or worked a 40 hour week.

Please remember that the factory will go to great lenghts to cut costs in production, many compromises are made, big engineering budget but bean counters have the final word.
I realize the truth of actual costs in manufacturing, as I do it for a living. that is why Jacks numbers are on the money.

I hate to see these cars hacked by people who want GN class with a beater mustang budget. Sorry to ruffle feathers, but "budget" is not a word to apply to building a nice Turbo Buick.

If the funds are not there, don't do the half measure, save and plan carefully, buy once based upon the end goal, it is cheaper in the end.
A good deal is great, but don't try to beat down the limited vendor base to save 10%, these guys all need to make a profit to continue to support the cause. Which Nick and Jack both do.

I know guys who are always waiting for the "group purchase", sorry but I build my cars on my schedule, I don't care what the "group" is doing, make your plan, stick with it and don't compromise, I don't trust cheaper parts in my cars anymore than I would rely on a cheap weapon for defense.

Pick your FM, both will work, doubtful there will ever be any worthwhile data produced, support your favorite vendor, and don't whine later nuf said.
 
While I can't argue about the efficiency and I haven't run any great times yet, I can say the powerstroke doesn't affect engine cooling. While my old Spearco FM blocked a lot of air and it was hard to keep the car under 200 degrees on the freeway in the summer, switching to the powersroke brought temps back to the 160 degree range as if it weren't even there. It's worth it to me on that point alone. It comes as a FM on a factory truck so it's made to pass a lot of air through it to the radiator. I don't like the idea of cutting a GN up but my car already had 220,000 miles on it and wasn't in the best shape.
 
Point well taken on engine cooling, as dual fan setup and maybe a alum radiator will do the trick with a big FM, almost should be a kit, but then there would be some real crying about cost.

Your combo looks good for some really low 12's to 11's
maybe lacking some injector.
 
I stick by what I stated. I am very confident in myself and that I can do my own front mount utilizing the Powerstroke intercooler for under $300. If you read my post I will quote myself
Oh yeah, and I will probably have about $300 total monetary investment plus my time (which is fun time to me)
My car is a hobby. I dont depend on it for daily transportation nor am I out to impress anyone else but myself. I dont include my time and labor on my hobby as being money spent since I enjoy it and that is something that is priceless for me. If you feel better about spending money on something you feel is justified, then so be it. You dont need to justify it to me or anyone else.
The only reason why any of us even posted or recommended the Powerstroke was to give the original poster another option. But with all the negative commentary being posted in this thread it might just be better if all the other Powerstroke users and myself keep it to ourselves. It can be our little secret. ;) But that is the sad thing about the board these days is that good ideas get quashed by others who have never tried something themselves or dont like the sound of it. Face it, if life was like that in other aspects we would never have had any new inventions or industrial progress.
 
Originally posted by GNVAIR
I stick by what I stated. I am very confident in myself and that I can do my own front mount utilizing the Powerstroke intercooler for under $300. If you read my post I will quote myself
My car is a hobby. I dont depend on it for daily transportation nor am I out to impress anyone else but myself. I dont include my time and labor on my hobby as being money spent since I enjoy it and that is something that is priceless for me. If you feel better about spending money on something you feel is justified, then so be it. You dont need to justify it to me or anyone else.
The only reason why any of us even posted or recommended the Powerstroke was to give the original poster another option. But with all the negative commentary being posted in this thread it might just be better if all the other Powerstroke users and myself keep it to ourselves. It can be our little secret. ;) But that is the sad thing about the board these days is that good ideas get quashed by others who have never tried something themselves or dont like the sound of it. Face it, if life was like that in other aspects we would never have had any new inventions or industrial progress.
My thoughts exactly and the main reason I haven't posted again after my initial posts. I am very happy to have nearly completed a project that is unique to my car and will increase the performance. I enjoyed customizing the various details of the project to my tastes.
 
Originally posted by cool 84
While I can't argue about the efficiency and I haven't run any great times yet, I can say the powerstroke doesn't affect engine cooling. While my old Spearco FM blocked a lot of air and it was hard to keep the car under 200 degrees on the freeway in the summer, switching to the powersroke brought temps back to the 160 degree range as if it weren't even there. It's worth it to me on that point alone. It comes as a FM on a factory truck so it's made to pass a lot of air through it to the radiator. I don't like the idea of cutting a GN up but my car already had 220,000 miles on it and wasn't in the best shape.
Yea, I was ready for the project once I told myselft it's just a core support:D

My research before the project pointed to the cooling not being an issue and was a motivating factor to try the PS IC. For now I'm going to use the stock 80k radiator but have added the dual fans. I have boxed the sides of the IC and am going to box the bottom and top portions along with making an air scoop. In conjunction with the boxed sides, I thought I'd try different combinations of using the boxed bottom, top and IC scoop to see how it affecting cooling. I'll be getting the pipes back from powdercoat and hopefully do some testing next month when the weather clears a bit. I'll run the DS and see if the data supports a specific combination of boxing and using or not using an air scoop.
 
Ok, here is the original question of this thread........ again

i was just wondering what is the biggest FMIC you can fit in the opering behind the grill Thank you


Norbs said simply .... Cottons frt mount......

Nick said simply ..... PS IC and then went on to say it was as good or better than anything currently out there.....

So I ask, for supporting testing information Nick stated as to the performance numbers he posted, but get no response......

I then give measurements of my IC, 1480" vs 1070" for the PS, I think that answers the original question with real, honest and actual data...... at no time has myself or anyone else knocked the PS IC. Unfortunately since Nick has chosen to post data that conflicts with what the "experts and engineers" have told me and others, I was put into a position to respond. The truth of this whole thread is that it is my hard work and others that try to support the Buick community with good products, are the ones under attack. At no time have I taken a cheap, unsubstantiated, or any remark at the PS IC option..... I have simply asked for data as others have asked of me in the past. Nick has instigated this thread and deterred it from it's original content and then steps back and does not respond when asked a legitimate question.... I, too, want to be educated and informed. As has been the case throughout my association with turbo Buicks, more than once I have been fed information I was supposed to believe by "Gurus' and found the information to be inaccurate when I looked into it. Had I not questioned and looked into Turbonetics turbos, I would not have known how well built and performing they are. When they were the only turbo built offering a Q trim turbine wheel, I was told they didn't work, now, if you want to make big power, you need a Q trim, according to those that didn't have Q trim technology available to them 3-4 years ago. ........ I could go on and on here, not looking for a debate, just a few answers....

Noone is trying to "SQUASH" the PS IC, this was not a "whose IC is cheaper or better thread, it was "what's the biggest" ......... period.... There are plenty of threads available to discuss other topics... I responded to this one because my IC was mentioned and compared to a PS. Thats all I have to say at this point.
 
Jack, was wondering if the data on your intercooler is based on in car data or stated core performance by the manufacturer? Just wondering.
 
Again, lets get some cars out at the track on the SAME day moving the same amount of air through thier intercoolers in the same alloted amount of time and compare data. None of this 12 second cars intake temps vs. 8 second cars temps.....

GNVAIR, if you can build it for $300 bucks including your "free" time thats fine. Jacks is a bolt on unit that requires next to no time. I hope when you put all the Buick vendors out of business you can still feel the need to do all this work for us for free when there is a need to fill orders for intercoolers. I would like to try out one of your intercoolers on the S2 car. Can I send a check for $300 bucks to you directly?
 
Originally posted by Ted A.
Again, lets get some cars out at the track on the SAME day moving the same amount of air through thier intercoolers in the same alloted amount of time and compare data. None of this 12 second cars intake temps vs. 8 second cars temps.....

GNVAIR, if you can build it for $300 bucks including your "free" time thats fine. Jacks is a bolt on unit that requires next to no time. I hope when you put all the Buick vendors out of business you can still feel the need to do all this work for us for free when there is a need to fill orders for intercoolers. I would like to try out one of your intercoolers on the S2 car. Can I send a check for $300 bucks to you directly?

Yep and to be honest, I really dont care. Its my car, my time and my money. I really could care less about whether "A" vendor stays in business or not. What I do care about is that I am happy, having fun and saving a ton of money that I could put towards something else. I shouldnt have to reiterate that I shared my info to give people another option. I dont see what is so wrong about that except that "A" vendor obviously feels threatend and the people who have his intercooler are angry because I am capable of doing something that works for me and saved me money. Like I said, its pretty sad that we can't do things like this because you idiots can't accept it.
Ted A, you are a nobody and the only way you are going to get an intercooler from me is if you get down on your knees and do what you obviously do best (as witnessed here)
Have a lovely day.
 
Originally posted by GNVAIR
Yep and to be honest, I really dont care. Its my car, my time and my money. I really could care less about whether "A" vendor stays in business or not. What I do care about is that I am happy, having fun and saving a ton of money that I could put towards something else. I shouldnt have to reiterate that I shared my info to give people another option. I dont see what is so wrong about that except that "A" vendor obviously feels threatend and the people who have his intercooler are angry because I am capable of doing something that works for me and saved me money. Like I said, its pretty sad that we can't do things like this because you idiots can't accept it.
Ted A, you are a nobody and the only way you are going to get an intercooler from me is if you get down on your knees and do what you obviously do best (as witnessed here)
Have a lovely day.

So we all have a summary of what GNVAIR really stands for here. Nobody said YOU can't do what YOU want. I know I am not in denial of the powerstroke intercooler, heck I made a statement on page 1 about my feelings about it. You have attacked honest hard working vendors without as much as 1 piece of data here. I as well as many other just want to see and learn if we can a little about the other alternatives are. I just would like to see some data. I don't see anybody here stooping to the level you have by throwing out sexual fantasies, and I am sorry your wife/girlfried/boyfriend do not fulfill your needs.
 
Originally posted by Ted A.
So we all have a summary of what GNVAIR really stands for here. Nobody said YOU can't do what YOU want. I know I am not in denial of the powerstroke intercooler, heck I made a statement on page 1 about my feelings about it. You have attacked honest hard working vendors without as much as 1 piece of data here. I as well as many other just want to see and learn if we can a little about the other alternatives are. I just would like to see some data. I don't see anybody here stooping to the level you have by throwing out sexual fantasies, and I am sorry your wife/girlfried/boyfriend do not fulfill your needs.

Ted, you obviously dont read. I NEVER attacked a vendor in this post. Some people are dellusional and would like to think that because and I some others recommended the Powerstroke over Jack's interooler that we are "attacking"; which is laughable.
I posted my findings as well as a respected advisor who has done a lot of research and has used the intercooler in question with excellent results. Please do not try to act like you are the victim here as you have contributed absolutely NOTHING to this thread except your cheap two bit commentary. Looking through many of your prior posts on the board it seems that you have become quite the cynical comedian. Your posting in this thread reinforces that you have nothing to contribute to the Buick community.
As for my gf does her part just fine. I was just making a point that you will never get anything from me. As a matter of fact, you have a better chance of getting pregnant or winning the lottery than you will of getting me to make you anything. :D
 
Oh and please list and give examples of what hard working vendors I attacked in this post. I never posted data because as far as I am concerned, the nay sayers ask for data because they dont want to believe the Powerstroke works. There are currently about 5 or 6 guys in the 10's and atleast one in the 9's with it.
Experts would probably say it wont work. Vendors selling a more expensive product (and making a profit) would also say it wont work. But the proof is in the pudding. No ands, ifs or buts.
Besides, whats wrong with a guy making his own parts rather than having to buy everything?:confused:
 
Originally posted by GNVAIR
There are currently about 5 or 6 guys in the 10's and atleast one in the 9's with it.
:


I would like to know what the air inlet temps were at the end of the 9 sec pass.

I ran mid 9's with the standard Precision fmic but the inlet temps were higher than I would like so I stepped up to a larger Precision unit. A local GN owner with a stage 2 88 turbo went 8.80's with the standard Precision unit, so anything is possible for a while

I would rather run the car with the best intercooler available that provides the most heat exchange.
 
Originally posted by GNVAIR
Oh and please list and give examples of what hard working vendors I attacked in this post. I never posted data because as far as I am concerned, the nay sayers ask for data because they dont want to believe the Powerstroke works. There are currently about 5 or 6 guys in the 10's and atleast one in the 9's with it.
Experts would probably say it wont work. Vendors selling a more expensive product (and making a profit) would also say it wont work. But the proof is in the pudding. No ands, ifs or buts.
Besides, whats wrong with a guy making his own parts rather than having to buy everything?:confused:


You did attack vendor "A". Who is that? Could be any of them..... You did say you don't really care if they go out of business. I care, I hate to see anybody lose thier livelihood. So there is 1 guy running 9's and quite a few running 10's. PTE's stock type intercooler is running 9's also, and I would bet there are some in the 10's too, and I am SURE it doesn't have the core area of the two intercoolers in question. So???? There is nothing wrong with fabricating your own stuff, I think it is great, heck I do fab up stuff myself too along with all the other Buick owners out there. We don't know really what the profit margins are of either said vendor, it wouldn't be fair to speculate and judge them by it. It sounds like Jack did a good job of putting out costs for his piece, he didn't have to. If the PS intercooler can be bought for less $$ which seems to be doable, it may fall into a larger market of guys and benifit those who can't or don't want to spend the $$, there is nothing wrong with that, but since this is about the facts, there seems to be a lot of talk about what is better and bigger and why is the answer to the question avoided.

Who are the experts that say it won't work? I have not read anywhere that it won't work, if anything there is skepticism that it will not outperform other intercoolers. We know from history that just when we say no, sombody does it.

Back under my nobody rock.... ;)
 
I am new to the buick scene only owning a gn for about a month and diving head over heels into modifications. My Turbo guru took one look at the intercooler in my car and told me its not gonna cut it for what we want to do so after speaking to a few people I decided to post on here and see what the experts thought and in a matter of minutes I was directed to this thread.
I must say after reading 2 pages and talking to many people today that while it may not be the cheapest it seems to be the one that is the biggest direct bolt in and all around performer
Jack, you will be getting my call, Are you open tomorrow? :)
 
Thats a call you won't regret !!

Contrary to popular convention, I believe a front mount to be a great first buy before the turbo upgrade, wish I had done it first !!

I recommend it now to my customers.
 
FMIC question - and answer!

Originally posted by gnkid1987
i was just wondering what is the biggest FMIC you can fit in the opening behind the grill Thank you

A Powerstroke which has a frontal core area of 18"x30 and the Cotton's unit in my garage measures 15"x28" frontal area is the basis for my original comment. The thicker core of the Cotton's unit may have some merit, but does it outweigh the advantage of 180 deg. bend vs. an easy 90 deg. bend or tanks and outlets designed to optimize flow like the PS?

As far as flow charts, engineering data and other info, results tell all. In the 9 and 10 sec. cars from which I have obtained results, Cotton's, PS and even a V-2, have had similar results.

To think an "discontinued" PS intercooler is going to put a vendor out of business is ludicrious.:) It is however, a viable option for someone on a budget, or that is gratified by building something their self.

Information like this is put out for those that are curious and want to try other methods, not to put anyone down or discredit products or vendors. Take it or leave it. I did not post to "prove" anything, just to pass on information that may help someone.

If you don't lke what I say, disregard it. If you do not believe what I say and want to dispute it, present your experience and results and we can then discuss it.

I am amazed at one thing, how a one simple sentence post can create a thread this extensive!:)
 
Originally posted by top gun
...... I would rather run the car with the best intercooler available that provides the most heat exchange.

No chance with the PS intercooler Dave, illegal for TSM as it extends slightly below the bottom of the core support.:D
 
Did I read that right? not legal for TSM ??, thats kinda of sucks.

Are they still avaialble for $165.00 ?? seems they should be snapped up for that price for project X

I wanted to buy a few for testing and tweaking on some supercharged applications.
 
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