How Much Power with Stock Bottom End?

[SCOOBY DOO]

My advice for your transmission when you're ready is this. Build it for more than what you're gonna throw at it. In other words...overbuild it. I had mine out 3 times. I shoulda overbuilt it the first time.

 

[Cryptic]

My advice for your transmission when you're ready is this. Build it for more than what you're gonna throw at it. In other words...overbuild it. I had mine out 3 times. I shoulda overbuilt it the first time.

Good advice! That’s how I tend to do most things. That’s what inspired this thread. I don’t like toeing the limits and breaking stuff if I can help it.


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[Jerryl]

A recent thread that was lost after the crash put a stock long block mid 10s, in Dallas, repeatedly.

Some have blown up the stock bottom end at 350 hp. Others have made high 9 sec power repeatedly. Some have insinuated 900 hp on a stock crank, repeatedly. It's all in the tune and combo.

Don't hire a budget tuner, and look for someone who has repeatedly done what you're trying to do. Know your limitations, and be willing to pay to flatten your learning curve, for your goal.

 

[TexasT]

A recent thread that was lost after the crash put a stock long block mid 10s, in Dallas, repeatedly.

Some have blown up the stock bottom end at 350 hp. Others have made high 9 sec power repeatedly. Some have insinuated 900 hp on a stock crank, repeatedly. It's all in the tune and combo.

Don't hire a budget tuner, and look for someone who has repeatedly done what you're trying to do. Know your limitations, and be willing to pay to flatten your learning curve, for your goal.

Ken didn't just fall off the turnip truck. That car is well prepared for those low 10s even though they were done on a stock long block.

As far as a 500hp turbo Buick goes as mentioned if you are not on top of it you will be wrecnhing on it to fix broken stuff. And these cars aren't exactly new so it is unknown how hard they were beaten on when they were. I know mine has been since I took delivery at about 17 miles.

 

[Jerryl]

450 whp is a walk in the park.
550 whp takes work, a solid budget, and knowledge.
650 whp takes lots of work, lots of knowledge, and at least 1 well groomed money tree.

 

[Jerryl]

Just for SnG:
If you are trying to "keep up" with the newer cars, the low RPM flat torque curve of the Buick shouldn't be taken for granted. That's why these cars are quick. Not the fastest, but quick enough to take money and still be respected on the street.

 

[Cryptic]

Just for SnG:
If you are trying to "keep up" with the newer cars, the low RPM Buick torque shouldn't be taken for granted. That's why these cars are quick. Not the fastest, but quick enough to take money and still be respected on the street.

I’m definitely not trying to be the fastest thing. Not trying to compete with Demons and that sort of thing. Just have some fun, be fast and reliable and be able to surprise people. I turn wrenches myself and enjoy doing it. That’s half the fun for me as long as I’m not constantly chasing issues.


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[Jerryl]

I don't want to take this thread off track, but think this is relevant.

For a given engine combination, power can only be increased by increasing mass flow rate. Torque is a function of controlled cylinder pressure in a given engine. HP is a very simple calculation.

The simplest way to increase mass flow is through manifold pressure. If we start thinking about +550 lbft at 4000 rpm (example), you can see how important the converter and transmission are to ensure the power gets to the wheels throughout the whole RPM range, while still spooling a turbo with 231 CID.

 

[Cryptic]

I don't want to take this thread off track, but think this is relevant.

For a given engine combination, power can only be increased by increasing mass flow rate. Torque is a function of controlled cylinder pressure in a given engine. HP is a very simple calculation.

The simplest way to increase mass flow is through manifold pressure. If we start thinking about +550 lbft at 4000 rpm (example), you can see how important the converter and transmission are to ensure the power gets to the wheels throughout the whole RPM range, while still spooling a turbo with 231 CID.

You’re the second person in the thread to remind me that the transmission and torque converter are important parts of the equation. Must be something to it.


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[Jerryl]

I’m definitely not trying to be the fastest thing. Not trying to compete with Demons and that sort of thing. Just have some fun, be fast and reliable and be able to surprise people. I turn wrenches myself and enjoy doing it. That’s half the fun for me as long as I’m not constantly chasing issues.


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I know of a local stock long block that beat many cars during dig night for years, at 26 psi 93/ally.

So, my advice is: Leave the stock heads alone. Get the RIGHT supporting mods and the tune RIGHT on e85 @ 33-35 psi. It will surprise you and many.

 

[Mr.Spool]

the horsepower limit is with the stock bottom end until you start breaking things?

what are looking for dyno numbers,real street numbers or track numbers?

 

[BRAD_PADGETT]

I know of a local stock long block that beat many cars during dig night for years, at 26 psi 93/ally.

So, my advice is: Leave the stock heads alone. Get the RIGHT supporting mods and the tune RIGHT on e85 @ 33-35 psi. It will surprise you and many.

This is dead on correct. That is what mine is. Rebuilt stock except for cam 213 213 and high compression 9.4. E85, 80ibs inj, 6262 turbo and three inch exhaust. ECUGN

 

[Mr.Spool]

After fixing one or two more minor things I am finally starting the quest to start adding power. I have some great ideas and plans on how to do that and while this will never be a racecar I'm curious what the consensus is with contemporary parts and tuning what the horsepower limit is with the stock bottom end until you start breaking things?

Now I realize there are different definitions of "breaking things" as in one pass until it breaks or a dozen. The number I'm looking for is if you're careful, have done things right, have a solid tune that you can run at and push it over and over again and be safe.

Part of this is just wanting to keep it tucked away as a reference but mostly because I would want to build for that number and tune for a lower number to be safe. I look forward to the many and varied opinions.

here is the truth of it.you need to be a tuner and not just logging.that means pulling plugs/reading plugs,evening out airflow,finding and tuning to your leanest cylinder,running proper timing,correct afr for the octane,looking at egts,watching in real time what the fuel system and afr is doing and making the proper adjustments along with preventative matinence.then comes the drivetrain and suspension.when you approach 100/125 hp per hole on the stock bottom end the cylinders need to be evened out,(i prefer pistons and main caps over 100hp per hole as the stock pistons like to crack from cylinder pressure regardless of egts and mains will split when it rattles) then 150+hp per hole can be achieved.if my post seems like too much work or to cunfusing then i would highly advise you to keep the car around 75hp per hole and have someone do it for you.i am speaking solely from experience not theory.

 

[Cryptic]

what are looking for dyno numbers,real street numbers or track numbers?

Dang, I replied to this but it must've gotten lost in the forum maintenance.

This car will be 98% street driven with the rare track visit. The reason I asked for dyno numbers is I imagine at some point this will be dyno tuned (maybe when Bison does another test and tune day in Houston). I want it to be fun to drive on the street, find that number and back away from it to be quick but reliable.

 

[Jerryl]

here is the truth of it.you need to be a tuner and not just logging.that means pulling plugs/reading plugs,evening out airflow,finding and tuning to your leanest cylinder,running proper timing,correct afr for the octane,looking at egts,watching in real time what the fuel system and afr is doing and making the proper adjustments along with preventative matinence.then comes the drivetrain and suspension.when you approach 100/125 hp per hole on the stock bottom end the cylinders need to be evened out,(i prefer pistons and main caps over 100hp per hole as the stock pistons like to crack from cylinder pressure regardless of egts and mains will split when it rattles) then 150+hp per hole can be achieved.if my post seems like too much work or to cunfusing then i would highly advise you to keep the car around 75hp per hole and have someone do it for you.i am speaking solely from experience not theory.

I agree with this 100%.
Many tuners are not.

 

[Mr.Spool]

Dang, I replied to this but it must've gotten lost in the forum maintenance.

This car will be 98% street driven with the rare track visit. The reason I asked for dyno numbers is I imagine at some point this will be dyno tuned (maybe when Bison does another test and tune day in Houston). I want it to be fun to drive on the street, find that number and back away from it to be quick but reliable.

dyno is a tuning tool only,setting up a street car is another animal.fun on the street is a combo that spools up really fast with boost on tap,on a stock motor you need the small turbos to do that,because the stock compression(say around 8.0) and rpm range is low(under 5000 with the stock cam).if your not a tuner you need to give computer control to someone who is,unless you want to play around then there is a learning curve,but you are driving the ship at that point.i will also give you another peice of important info, vendors will not give you a full out power tune,they will tune usually t with a fuel cushion and be conservative on the timing as they should be,a full power tune is reserved for racers and those willing to risk thousands of dollars to win races,period.my tuneup in my nt car is something very few would risk or even understand,and i dont tune other cars like that because there is risk involved and they are not racing.keep it around 75 hp per hole ,work the suspension,do the trans,put a good tire on the car,drive it,get it to leave hard,and enjoy it,you will hurt alot of the newer cars feelings till 1000ft.

 

[Mr.Spool]

only thing I can add is that they will take a good beating with a spot on tune. IF it hiccups it gets ugly really quick. also it isn't if it breaks but when.

bullshit,you started this years agogoing 9s on stock junk with a 340 in tank on 93 pump gas and twin nozzles,stock ecm and 3700 lbs and a light 60ft on radials.now everybody wants to run 9s

 

[Mr.Spool]

The reason I asked for dyno numbers is I imagine at some point this will be dyno tuned (maybe when Bison does another test and tune day in Houston)

brian understands about proper sizing of the turbos to the stock motors and will give you a responsible tune.

 

[Mr.Spool]

I turn wrenches myself and enjoy doing it.

then you may be able to take the car further,do a search on here there is alot of info.if you want to go fast,axles,posi,trans upgrade,turbo,injectors,intercooler,maf,piping,exhaust piping,plugs,wires,rjc brace and plate,uppers,lowers,hr sway bar,converter,tire,tune.and thats at 75hp per hole on a car that is raced alot.after that well everything bigger that i listed and the money and skill and patience to spend and replace it

 

[tbaumann]

here is the truth of it.you need to be a tuner and not just logging.that means pulling plugs/reading plugs,evening out airflow,finding and tuning to your leanest cylinder,running proper timing,correct afr for the octane,looking at egts,watching in real time what the fuel system and afr is doing and making the proper adjustments along with preventative matinence.then comes the drivetrain and suspension.when you approach 100/125 hp per hole on the stock bottom end the cylinders need to be evened out,(i prefer pistons and main caps over 100hp per hole as the stock pistons like to crack from cylinder pressure regardless of egts and mains will split when it rattles) then 150+hp per hole can be achieved.if my post seems like too much work or to cunfusing then i would highly advise you to keep the car around 75hp per hole and have someone do it for you.i am speaking solely from experience not theory.

I enjoyed following this as I am also looking to turn up the wick.I have done research and experimenting with plug reading. The question that I have is how do you adjust your leanest cylinder and even out air flow?? I have my AFR pretty good on E85 Eric TT chip. it runs good when the boost first comes on but fatten up at the end. I would like to get it better across the total run. Can this be done with Eric Chip??

I have a stck block and turbo, IC, free flowing exhaust, DW 300 pump, hot wire ,adjustable fp reg, scanmaster 2.1.80 lb injectors E85 TT Chip, Powerlogger, AEM WB