Is the racing dead?

[Alky V6]

It is NOT their job to cater to your personal whims. It is however your job to at least monitor the forums that are especially created to inform the masses about these events and their goings on.
Sounds to me like you want to sit back and have the promoters PM you and email you about every event, every change, every rule, etc. etc.....
If that is the fact, who's the lazy one?

I personally think the job of promoting the event was a stellar job, and I like most everybody else on this board that had interest knew of everything that was planned at least 6 months in advance, and were kept apprised of any changes, via those threads right up to the event.

Nobody says you have to take time to read EVERY thread (your words) on this board. Nobody does. I monitor less that 5-6 threads on a regular basis. And occasionally check the misc. forums for event info that may interest me.

Stirring the pot may be fun for some, but not so much for most. The reason I say that is that you and I both know you would never come this far east to run your car. I could be wrong but I doubt seriously that you've run your car any further east than Vegas. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Another important rule in sales, Dave.

Never, ever pre-qualify your client.

In other words, never presume to know your customer. Major mistake.
A person could be dressed like a complete bum, yet have buying power beyond what you would ever have imagined.
An old lady could drive into a shop wanting to fix a complete wreck of a car, yet be so emotionally attached to the car that she becomes angry and insulted when you recommend she get rid of the car instead of fixing it.

Another MAJOR mistake is to assume that it is my JOB to do ANYTHING!!!

It's pretty apparent to me you have no marketing or sales skills. And that's perfectly fine. It takes special people to do sales and marketing.

I will tell you that one of my dreams is to come out east to show the car, but the lack of interest to have me come out is pretty apparent on this site, and that does nothing to encourage my dream. No one wants to spend a lot of money to show their car where you're not welcome.

So. How do you go about making someone feel welcome, Dave? How do you encourage people to attend your event?

Do you badger them and tell them it's all their fault for not coming in the fashion that has been occurring with me on this thread?

I have to say, the fashion that I have been encouraged to attend an event by most on this thread are text book examples of the wrong way to encourage someone to bother to make the trip to attend. More to reflect upon as you guys try to figure out why attendance is waning.

 

[TurboDave]

So. How do you go about making someone feel welcome, Dave? How do you encourage people to attend your event?

Do you badger them and tell them it's all their fault for not coming in the fashion that has been occurring with me on this thread?

.

Well, that pretty much sums it up. I'll leave you with your thoughts. Question is, who's doing the badgering?

 

[Alky V6]

More to reflect upon as you guys try to figure out why attendance is waning.

I'm just trying to help you guys figure out why there is a problem with attendance. Maybe the problem is more deep seeded than I thought. You seem to be more focused on me, than on the main problem here. That narrow mindedness will not help you guys improve your situation.

 

[GN/GTO]

Here is two cents from a old timer.. Those of you that were around and racing in the early to mid 70's saw the same thing happening.. A lot of perspective racers are not racing in class catorgories because they can't keep up with the big guns in the class.. Not take anything away from these guys that have done wonders with their cars, but the weekend average Joe sees or hears results from events and know they don't have a chance..
NHRA was faced with the same problem back in the 70's. Car counts were down the spectator side was empty.. What saved the drag racing world back then... Bracket Racing !! Now the playing field was even, it didn't matter who was the fastest, if you won or lost it was your driving skills that made the race. I'm not saying do away with the classes that are being run now. I'm saying open the door to every car out there.. Run ET classes like the old days. "Street Eliminator any one dialing 14.00 or slower" "Heavy Elimainator 13.99 to 12.00" "Pro ET 11.99 and faster".. It worked back then it will work now! This opens the door to everyone no matter how much money you have or don't have.. And its FUN!!

 

[Alky V6]

Here is two cents from a old timer.. Those of you that were around and racing in the early to mid 70's saw the same thing happening.. A lot of perspective racers are not racing in class catorgories because they can't keep up with the big guns in the class.. Not take anything away from these guys that have done wonders with their cars, but the weekend average Joe sees or hears results from events and know they don't have a chance..
NHRA was faced with the same problem back in the 70's. Car counts were down the spectator side was empty.. What saved the drag racing world back then... Bracket Racing !! Now the playing field was even, it didn't matter who was the fastest, if you won or lost it was your driving skills that made the race. I'm not saying do away with the classes that are being run now. I'm saying open the door to every car out there.. Run ET classes like the old days. "Street Eliminator any one dialing 14.00 or slower" "Heavy Elimainator 13.99 to 12.00" "Pro ET 11.99 and faster".. It worked back then it will work now! This opens the door to everyone no matter how much money you have or don't have.. And its FUN!!

Our track would be dead without bracket racing. What I'm seeing though, particularly with the faster guys that are getting tired of spending so much money to become the fastest (class racing), is that index racing is really gaining popularity. I particularly like the fact that the competitors leave the line in a heads up fashion, versus one before the other. For one thing, that takes a lot of the need for fancy starting line electronics out of the picture, saving on costs.

 

[GN/GTO]

The index racing is a step in the right direction, but doesn't open the door for as many racers. Non-electronics in the bracket classes would slove the starting line advantage.. If a electronics class is needed it can be added, call it Super Pro and have one bracket for all that run electronics.. Heck back in the 70's we used to run the front tires low on air to get more roll out...LOL

 

[Alky V6]

The index racing is a step in the right direction, but doesn't open the door for as many racers. Non-electronics in the bracket classes would slove the starting line advantage.. If a electronics class is needed it can be added, call it Super Pro and have one bracket for all that run electronics.. Heck back in the 70's we used to run the front tires low on air to get more roll out...LOL

I don't understand why index racing doesn't open the door for just as many racers as bracket racing does. Even more so with the electronics advantage thrown out the window. Now you can mix electronic and non-electronic cars. At our track, we've been tracking who is winning more often in a mixed bracket racing situation where you have E cars running along with non-E cars, and by far the non-E cars are beating the pants off the E cars. In fact, I don't think an E car has one event win yet.

edit: I should add that much of the reason why the non-E cars are beating up on the E cars at our track is because we have some killer drivers that don't need the electronics.

There is no reason why anyone would be left out in a properly set up index event. Look at a Pinks All Out event. That was basically index racing, but they only ran off one particular index field. But look at the kinds and varieties of cars that showed up hoping the organizers would pick their particular index range.
The only difference would be that all the index classes get to run off. Not just a chosen index range.

And what type of car isn't any easier to dial into an index class than a turbo car. Simple boost adjustment is all that's needed.

It's as if index class racing was invented for turbo cars!

 

[Alky V6]

Index racing isn't sexy enough?

Make up killer names for each of the index classes. The fastest index class might be called the 'Top Pro' or 'Top Eliminator' class, or whatever. That's exactly what the PSCA organization here on the west coast did, and the classes are extremely popular. The guys in Vegas can tell you. A PSCA event at Vegas is a big deal.

BTW PSCA stands for Pacific Street Car Association. More than a few times people have tried to get me involved with that organization. As a racer participant.

 

[Alky V6]

PSCA also has their true heads up classes, but the racer attendance has been waning. Last time I was at a PSCA event to spectate, they had class racers running around 6.20s in the quarter. Class racing is just too expensive to keep up for too long.

 

[SGRIM]

Don, I don't know how else to say this but to say it so...

Seems like you have overtaken this thread... I am hearing people don't want to post because they don't want to argue with you...

Again, don't mean to be rude but we got your opinion and understand that everything but index racing is dying as far as you are concerned...

Please let others post:smile:

 

[Alky V6]

Don, I don't know how else to say this but to say it so...

Seems like you have overtaken this thread... I am hearing people don't want to post because they don't want to argue with you...

Again, don't mean to be rude but we got your opinion and understand that everything but index racing is dying as far as you are concerned...

Please let others post:smile:

emails tell me otherwise, but OK. I'll shut up. Good luck fellas.

 

[Tiretoter]

I never 'accused' anyone of not having the proper mojo for doing the job.

Sure you did, Re-read your post.

Not knowing any of these guys, you might say I was simply testing the waters.

Figures.

Do you not think that the suggestion I made for the way it might have been handled would not have been a better way?

No.

Do you not also think there is some room for improvement?

There is always room for improvement. The best way is to become involved in a constructive way.

I get the impression by your post that even you realize that you're putting up with what you have. That's OK. Sometimes that's the only option.

Wrong. I organize three separate classes at the GS Nationals every year, and have done so for 10 or 11 years. See, I got involved in a constructive way to help make things better, and hopefully my contributions have made a positive difference. Hopefully I have the "sales skills", the "people skills" and the "mojo" to pull it off.

I'm just trying to help you guys figure out why your events seem to be waning. That is the main question here, isn't it?

I dont think so. I think everyone has an idea why participation is waning. Examples I have read and added to myself in this thread are but are not limited to:

An aging enthusiast group
An aging automobile ie the GS and T-Type, GN etc
The increasing value of the cars themselves
The economy
The cost of fuel, lodging, food etc
Cars lost, wrecked, stolen or otherwise out of commission
Struggling vendors
Too many local events pulling from the National events

I think the gist here is to brainstorm ways to get new blood involved, and maybe get some of the old timers back in the mix.

I will add, that in some cases when you have the wrong people running a program, there can be this pompous air about them that others pick up on that can turn the event sour.

I agree to some extent. But you cannot call anyone pompous that you do not know, and you have admitted that you dont know anyone that is involved in organizing these classes. Calling them pompuos would be like them calling you obnoxious for some of the comments you have made in this thread.

 

[Alky V6]

As you can see, Shane. I don't think I'm the one inciting the arguing. But, I will be quiet anyway.

Keep the thread on topic, fellas.

 

[Tiretoter]

Please allow me to comment on a select few statements from your above post to TurboDave, as the rest of it has been hashed and rehashed time and again by myself and others.

It's pretty apparent to me you have no marketing or sales skills. And that's perfectly fine. It takes special people to do sales and marketing.

Nice. Comments like that are not what these events are all about, though they do "incite arguing". Try attending someday and see for yourself.

I will tell you that one of my dreams is to come out east to show the car, but the lack of interest to have me come out is pretty apparent on this site, and that does nothing to encourage my dream. No one wants to spend a lot of money to show their car where you're not welcome.

You should try to understand that this is a nich market, not the NHRA. While I'm sure most everyone reading my words, and most everyone else on this board would love to have you attend one of these events, myself included, I wouldnt hold my breath for someone to drop down on one knee.

Most if not all of the guys and gals that attend these events do so out of the love of Buicks and the fellowship than goes along with it. They love their Buick and the opportunity to see and fellowship with like minds and rekindle old relationships. And by fellowship I mean the free steak cookouts put on by my buddy the V8Assassin (anyone heard from Adam lately?), the free crawfish boils put on by the members of the DSR (whomever that is ), the after hours dinners in Reynolds and the BS that comes with it like the knucklehead doing donuts on his four wheeler at midnight nearly getting us all run off hee hee (sorry Mike), the late nighters in the motel parking lots, Cal Hartline tuning on 14 cars at the same time and the gymnastics that go along with that, the thrashing in the pits where everyone chips in even when they dont know you, you toasting a converter before the finals only to have someone you dont know yank theirs out so you can make the call, the ****-talking, the benchracing, piling up at the starting line on Friday night to see a low et or world record pass, and on and on and on.

You see, most dont have to be sold the product. They WANT to be involved because they read about the events, and the fun had, here on the board, they hear about them by word of mouth, from club newsletters and etc. Besides, its a product that you cant really sell. Its like trying to sell strawberry ice cream to a tribe of aborigines that have never seen ice, much less strawberries. Quite simply, you have to experience it for yourself.

 

[Tiretoter]

As you can see, Shane. I don't think I'm the one inciting the arguing. But, I will be quiet anyway.

Keep the thread on topic, fellas.

I'm not arguing Don, I am just answering some of your questions, and retorting some of your comments. All done in a nice and respectful way of course.

 

[turbobuick]

There are several reasons why the race classes died and the economy and age of the cars is really a very small part of it, IMO.

Instead of sitting here bitching about why the race classes died I figured I would offer up something constructive for making them work, increasing car count and vendor and spectator participation.

This is the race format I had in mind the last year I was running the Top Gun Point Series (2009).

Have four classes, TSO, TSL, TSM and THS

Allow the classes to carry on with rules and tech as they have and have all the classes have all their individual class rules and racers voting on such.

Index the classes: 8.50, 9.0, 9.50 and 10.0

Run a pro-tree sportsman-ladder setup based on qualifying times for each class with no breakout/index in qualifying. Meaning, you are running under the index in qualifying to compete for the #1 qualifier spot in your class.

Award points on Qualifying order, new records AND rounds won.

Run ALL the classes together at the various events so there is at least something exciting to watch. 4 TSO cars, 6 TSL cars, 10 TSM cars, and 12 THS cars makes a 32 car field and something worth watching that is easier to organize for the race promoter and takes significantly less time to run.

It also makes for 32 racers in a point series which makes raising $$ and vendor participation a heck of a lot easier. Especially when trying to attract vendors outside of the Buick world, which I had some success with and would've had more if I would've kept going.

 

[gn4u2c]

Sounds good Chris

 

[Razor]

There are several reasons why the race classes died and the economy and age of the cars is really a very small part of it, IMO.

Instead of sitting here bitching about why the race classes died I figured I would offer up something constructive for making them work, increasing car count and vendor and spectator participation.

This is the race format I had in mind the last year I was running the Top Gun Point Series (2009).

Have four classes, TSO, TSL, TSM and THS

Allow the classes to carry on with rules and tech as they have and have all the classes have all their individual class rules and racers voting on such.

Index the classes: 8.50, 9.0, 9.50 and 10.0

Run a pro-tree sportsman-ladder setup based on qualifying times for each class with no breakout/index in qualifying. Meaning, you are running under the index in qualifying to compete for the #1 qualifier spot in your class.

Award points on Qualifying order, new records AND rounds won.

Run ALL the classes together at the various events so there is at least something exciting to watch. 4 TSO cars, 6 TSL cars, 10 TSM cars, and 12 THS cars makes a 32 car field and something worth watching that is easier to organize for the race promoter and takes significantly less time to run.

It also makes for 32 racers in a point series which makes raising $$ and vendor participation a heck of a lot easier. Especially when trying to attract vendors outside of the Buick world, which I had some success with and would've had more if I would've kept going.

This is great, but i'd like to see some slower index stuff for novice guys. That way they can get their feet wet and more interested in racing at an event. 10.0 is a tough nut to crack for the "average" enthusiast. And requires a slew of safety equipment that most dont want to put on their cars.

I also understand anyone moving a car from point A to Point B hundreds of miles is serious about attending. And that there are way more 11-12 second TR's roaming around than 8,9,10 sec Buicks combined.

Your 32 car field sounds awesome.. if you can get the cars which is why I started the thread. What would you suggest we can as a group do to entice more of the slower cars. Those slower cars are the future if any of this vehicle in racing formats.

 

[turbobuick]

This is great, but i'd like to see some slower index stuff for novice guys. That way they can get their feet wet and more interested in racing at an event. 10.0 is a tough nut to crack for the "average" enthusiast. And requires a slew of safety equipment that most dont want to put on their cars.

I also understand anyone moving a car from point A to Point B hundreds of miles is serious about attending. And that there are way more 11-12 second TR's roaming around than 8,9,10 sec Buicks combined.

Your 32 car field sounds awesome.. if you can get the cars which is why I started the thread. What would you suggest we can as a group do to entice more of the slower cars. Those slower cars are the future if any of this vehicle in racing formats.

If you combine the classes the larger events would have the car count.

The alphabet soup HU classes are supposed to show case what turbo Buick's can do and give the slower racers something to aspire to and help develop innovative products that make racing these cars exciting for everybody.

To increase car count and make it work you need consistency more than anything else. Don't change things around and keep the core rules for all the classes the same from year to year and you will attract racers, sponsors and spectators.

As far as me doing something personally, I am done. I have had more than my fill of racer clique's and politics from BOTH Buick clubs. I've been called just about every name, have had accusations made about me and want nothing to do with it any more. I raised more money, got more sponsors than anybody ever had and nobody was happy and I was fought on everything at every turn. Somebody else is welcome to carry the torch and I will simply be a racer.

 

[cold85]

I have not read every post so someone may have already posted the same idea.
1. For me at Buick days even having a buick it seemed to be to many heads up classes maybe only do something like a street race and a faster class to more open rules. Try both classes on rules that other racing organizations use. That way you can build a Buick to compete in more than Buick classes giving the racer more places to race during off Buick times.
2. If you want to open up to other cars just do it as a seperate index or bracket race that if buicks want to enter they can.