J&S "Safeguard" individual knock control system...

[toofastforyou]

I noticed that member "norbs" shows one in his signature...Anyone else here use it? What does it do that the Fast XFI doesn't already do? I'm just wondering if it's worth having or if it's better to invest in something else?

LINK: http://jandssafeguard.com/index.html

Claude.

 

[toofastforyou]

Anyone?...worth or not?...

Claude.

 

[norbs]

It will save your motor before the fast even registers knock........Its very fast to react and more sensitive, but you can adjust it. It will retard each cylinder on the next firing, the fast retard all the cylinders costing you hp.

 

[toofastforyou]

Thanks "norbs" for your reply...I went to look at it on their website...which one do you have ("universal", "interceptor" or "vampire")? Now that I know that it reacts faster than the FAST, I'm tempted to get one... Is itbetter to buy it directly from them or is there a better place?...

I wonder how does it work...Does it needs to have a some kind of sensor in each of the cylinders?

Thanks,

Claude.

 

[norbs]

I have the universal since I use a distributor, as far as I know you can only buy direct. No sensor needed it knows when the knock was present and knows when that cylinder fires again to retard the timing. If you have a coil pack you need the vampire, email John he is a great guy and knows his stuff.

 

[toofastforyou]

I have the universal since I use a distributor, as far as I know you can only buy direct. No sensor needed it knows when the knock was present and knows when that cylinder fires again to retard the timing. If you have a coil pack you need the vampire, email John he is a great guy and knows his stuff.

Ok thanks for the info... I do have the factory coil pack so I guess the "vampire" is the one I need.

thanks again,

Claude.

 

[toofastforyou]

Here's the reply I got from John Pizzuto from J&S:
"Claude:
The Interceptor version would work. It would install between the outputs of the FAST and the MSD DIS-4. The Vampire version cannot work directly with MSD. In general, the Vampire connects to the negative terminals of each coil of an existing inductive ignition.The J&S unit could allow for more power, since it retards only the knocking cylinders.The unit has ten increments of knock retard, each increment is either one or two degrees, depending on mode switch #1. "Up" allows up to twenty degrees of knock retard, down allows up to ten degrees of knock retard."


I find this device interesting, but want to make sure it's "money well spent"...or not. I do my best to use some hi-test fuel for regular driving...and use race fuel at the track to minimize the risks of having some knock.
I even asked Jack Cotton what he thinks about the Safeguard and he said that even if the idea is not bad, when you get a knock alert it's often too late and unfortunately, some kind of damage might have already been done......meaning that he's not sure that the Safeguard will be useful or not in preventing knock...
Claude.

 

[HighPSI]

Here's the reply I got from John Pizzuto from J&S:
"Claude:
The Interceptor version would work. It would install between the outputs of the FAST and the MSD DIS-4. The Vampire version cannot work directly with MSD. In general, the Vampire connects to the negative terminals of each coil of an existing inductive ignition.The J&S unit could allow for more power, since it retards only the knocking cylinders.The unit has ten increments of knock retard, each increment is either one or two degrees, depending on mode switch #1. "Up" allows up to twenty degrees of knock retard, down allows up to ten degrees of knock retard."

This looks like a pretty cool device, but I would also want to make sure that when it retards the timing "only in the knocking cylinders", that it has the ability to differentiate between the two cylinders on the same coil. I personally prefer to tune safely enough not to have any knock vs running so close to the edge. I would never want ANY knock when running race gas at the track.

 

[TTipe]

This looks like a pretty cool device, but I would also want to make sure that when it retards the timing "only in the knocking cylinders", that it has the ability to differentiate between the two cylinders on the same coil. I personally prefer to tune safely enough not to have any knock vs running so close to the edge. I would never want ANY knock when running race gas at the track.

Not all knock is audible (5k to 6khz) assumed.The JS system algorithm is not the same as the esc module algorithm which sends a voltage to the abbaccus.The JS system uses to parallel streams of data,1 noise (dirt) and the other knock.A comparison is made based on the retard value selected.Its more sensitive due to the parallel data streams.JS is quicker than the stock esc. Obviously you fuel and spark correctly or don't even bother. As power increases per unit of displacement knock happens faster and with more energy since more "end gasses" exist with the possibility to be improperly burned.An engine rebuild is more expensive than a $600 dollar controller.

 

[HighPSI]

I not "knocking" this device I was only offering a couple of suggestions. First was to verify it could do individual retard with a wastespark setup. I wouldn't want it sensing knock in one cylinder and dropping the timing in the shared cylinder, then reapplying the timing to the actual knocking cylinder. If it pullling timing out of both cylinders then it isn't as big of an advantage. Second was that it "might" serve a purpose on a street car that could potentially get some bad fuel, etc.. , but a well tuned race car running good fuel should never need to be that close to the "edge" when it comes to timing. If you have ever compared hp to timing at WOT, you probably already know this.

 

[norbs]

I will have to talk to John at JS to see what you mean by retarding the pairs of cylinders, but I don;t think it works like that, all it does is sense when it seen knock, and when that cylinder comes around to fire again, it retards that cyl 2 degrees or so and see;s if the knock went away, if it doesn;t next firing it will retard that cylinder again. It intercepts the existing trigger from the coils, so I'm thinking in theory it should work to retard the correct cylinder. You would have to dyno a car back to back with and without it to determine gains and losses in hp. Even with race gas it would be interesting.

 

[kidglok]

imo, honestly, this is a big waste of money

 

[TTipe]

I not "knocking" this device I was only offering a couple of suggestions. First was to verify it could do individual retard with a wastespark setup. I wouldn't want it sensing knock in one cylinder and dropping the timing in the shared cylinder, then reapplying the timing to the actual knocking cylinder. If it pullling timing out of both cylinders then it isn't as big of an advantage. Second was that it "might" serve a purpose on a street car that could potentially get some bad fuel, etc.. , but a well tuned race car running good fuel should never need to be that close to the "edge" when it comes to timing. If you have ever compared hp to timing at WOT, you probably already know this.

I'm not necessarily advocating this device but it has some interesting features which do promote safety for those of us "misguided" tuners.Due to the firing order (1,6,5,4,3,2) the wastespark design does not have adjacent firing events on the same coil. The coils are paired (1-4,6-3,2-5) and there would not be enough dwell to re-saturate the coil going in the other direction if the design other than it is.The JS is quick enough that when it sees that its algorithm determines knock it will pull spark on the next firing event based on a user determined spark retard. The box has a function selection for individual retard vs all retard until no knock. Sensitivity is user selected. Its algorithm for knock determination is the best I have seen (far better than OEM). The OEM system can't react to what it can't hear based the OEM algorithm.With power density being doubled on "109" blocks more combustion end gases are available for more knock opportunities. I never set up a car with more than 18* spark at WOT with any system. This protects both user and tuner. My own stuff is a little different.

 

[The Radius Kid]

Sounds like a good idea.
You've got a dedicated processor for spark control that seems to be more sensitive than most of the other control options that are out there.
I don't see how that's a bad thing,especially when you can get different versions that can be applied to different types of ignition systems.

 

[norbs]

imo, honestly, this is a big waste of money

Give Duttweiler a call, see if he agree's with you on that one...ALso the XFI will pull timing on ALL cylinders, that is a big HP loss for nothing.

 

[kidglok]

Here's the thing:

If your knocking, you have to stop and correct the problem, J&s isn't going to save your motor from an extreme lean condition or some other unforeseen issue, the damage will already be done. Retarding the timing will only help so much in that situation.

The other thing is that if this system is soo sensitive what's to stop it from pulling timing on a hard launch at the track?

 

[TTipe]

Here's the thing:

If your knocking, you have to stop and correct the problem, J&s isn't going to save your motor from an extreme lean condition or some other unforeseen issue, the damage will already be done. Retarding the timing will only help so much in that situation.

The other thing is that if this system is soo sensitive what's to stop it from pulling timing on a hard launch at the track?

Both the Fast & OEM esc are slow and not as sensitive compared to JS.Inaudible knock does exist and it may not be detected by the Fast & OEM esc's. Cars have had spark (knock) issues in the past that were not detected which grew into destructive issues quickly. I will be the first to stand up and say that a pass was not clean and there was definate audible knock since I can hear it in the stands. "Review your spark tables". There are experts (including Ken) that know almost in-audible knock can and does exist. If I stick an injector because I'm into DC to deep this JS thing might reduce a windowed block to a blown head gasket.I would rather spend $600 on more engine protection than $6000 on a cheap shortblock. I have no idea how to deal with noisy launches setting off spark retard other than to eliminate the noise.

 

[kidglok]

i feel u ttipe,

but have you ever heard of someone blowing up an engine due to knock that has not been recorded, seen, or even heard?

 

[TTipe]

i feel u ttipe,

but have you ever heard of someone blowing up an engine due to knock that has not been recorded, seen, or even heard?

I completely agree with you that there is usually audible/data logger evidence of engine damage, but when I can hear it the damage was done. If I can stop knock prior hearing it then I can reduce or maybe eliminate damage.These cars have untapped potential in their unmodified state,but the OEM esc strategy on these cars is stone age and not updated with respect to the power density of these modified engines. Look at some the competition.The new 5.0 (both boss & standard) has two knock sensors ( 1 per bank under the intake manifold). The 3800 series 2 & 3 have a pair, one per block skirt in the water jacket. Here we are with 1 sensor at the back of the engine ( not an optimized location for sensitivity) running a not so hot detection scheme, a slow circuit card and a slow computer (the abbaccus). Lets also remember that the fwhp/in^3 is usually double that of competitive v8 cars. I need to post the link to a forum I saw showing other racing communities positive comments about JS.

 

[kidglok]

all valid points,

i wish someone would come up with a boost retard for knock control instead of just timing