Kirbans ZDDP

[at7we2]

btw what genius said diesel oil was good for our motors anyway?

Several enthusiast publications have recommended diesel oil for flat tappet engines. Hot Rod magazine for one. Now, don't get me wrong I don't believe everything I read, but their rationale was good enough for me to try it. Especially after I wiped three cams in a row in my previous GN using three different off the shelf synthetic oils.

the viscosity is way off as well as the additives plus the too little amount of zddp thats in it will not suffice or sustain in our cars.

How is the viscocity "way off"??? All the diesel oil I've seen is 15w40.

I do agree with you on the "band-aid" comment. But sometimes you need a band-aid. This is what I've been using:
Extreme Engine Oil

I just recently started adding the ZDDPlus to it also. Yeah, I'm a little paranoid about wiping another cam. :biggrin: Of course, if this one goes, I'm going roller next time.

 

[Dreamcar86]

All of this discussion over a 4 oz. bottle of additive. LOL! :biggrin:

 

[2QUIK6]

Several enthusiast publications have recommended diesel oil for flat tappet engines. Hot Rod magazine for one. Now, don't get me wrong I don't believe everything I read, but their rationale was good enough for me to try it. Especially after I wiped three cams in a row in my previous GN using three different off the shelf synthetic oils.

Hey Rob, I've read the same thing as well, but its been 5-6 years ago when they first started talking about ZDDP being phased out of PCMO. The diesel oils have started phasing out ZDDP as mentioned above. Rotella for one changed labels recently..I don't use it, but I beleive the change had to do with the color of the Shell emblem on the bottle, it was very subtle according to some other classic car forums I read, the new color..I think it was white has little to no ZDDP in it. This just isn't a TR issue, but all classic car forums are buzzing with this info.
And speaking of the Bobs the oil guy forum, there's tons of misinformation on that site by forum posters as well...I read a post there by someone claiming all PMCO oils still have 1% ZDDP in them

 

[at7we2]

yeah, I understand they are phasing it out of the diesel oils as well. I started using the Premium Blue a few years ago. No more cam failures, but I have no way of determining for certain how much the oil had to do with that. Although I suspect using the diesel oil probably has prevented any more cam failures. And like I said, I'm now adding the ZDDP additive to the Premium Blue. At some point I'll probably switch to a non-diesel oil, but I have a small stockpile of the Premium Blue. :biggrin:

 

[Turbo6Smackdown]

the only misinformation in this thread is pretty much vaders.

no one said it was an instant change even for diesels- but its slowly coming out of there too- since 2000 it has been in reduction.

gas or diesel motors are built with different clearances and bearings then they were in 87.different manufacture process as well so the trucking industry will not shut down over night but will be phased out as well weather you want to believe it or not.

btw what genius said diesel oil was good for our motors anyway?
the viscosity is way off as well as the additives plus the too little amount of zddp thats in it will not suffice or sustain in our cars.

at best its a band aid

I understand that, but i was taking in consideration how long normal cars last. passenger cars only get about 100,000 miles on em, before they rot in someones junkyard. thats a quick enough turnover rate to phase out zddp at a decent clip, because the cars with flat tappets are dying super fast.

Diesel trucks on the other hand, can sometimes log a million miles (on the 18 wheelers) and i dont seem em switchin cams anytime soon, so at that rate, it would take decades to phase out the zddp from diesel oil. Im sure theres still 18 wheelers from 1980 with no rebuilds yet still haulin'. thats a LOT of flat tappet cams that need to be zddp'd. in my opinion, zddp in diesel oil isnt goin anywhere, anytime soon.

 

[VadersV6]

well you didn't do it- you didn't do anything that was measurable scientific or formulated on paper that would add up to a accountant let alone an engineer.



i would like to know who your government contact is that told you it isn't being phased out along with the study on how much zddp was in oil in 87 and how much is in there now.
and

lets see your test analysis also (not richards on the excact amount of zddp) and names of oil manufacturers that gave you your info...


WHILE YOUR AT It ADD THE INDEPENDANT test labs you had it done at to ensure they were correct and the cost of doing so
scan them for proof
or



im calling bull**** to your empty attack/ rebuttal thingy

The CI-4, CIF-4 code says it meets the additive requirement for diesel and all flat tappet motors. FACT. The symbol itself is just a symbol. The codes are what matter, and the starburst has the codes that mean ZDDP is being phased out of that particular oil.
Yes, ZDDP is being phased out...but NOT out of ALL oils! And not out of all Rotella oil products.
I didnt HAVE to do a paper or study or report. Plenty of people already did that. Some oddball group called The Society of Automotive Engineers....SAE.
The test analysis, virgin and used, are all available on bobistheoilguy, if you look in the VOA posts. No misinformation in raw data. No opinions. Just test results. The fact I posted that the test results all are on that page, and you didnt look, shows you'd rather argue than read because you're lazy.
As for Rotella having the viscosity all out of whack...funny one. On the west coast here, we can run 30 weight year round. No one really knows that, but if you read the old buick manual, it shows a chart with what weights should be used for what temperatures. The range we have here, requires 30 weight. But 40 is fine, 10 is fine. Your motor will not seize up from running Rotella. I threw it in last month and it seems to be working just fine.

 

[Howard Hoyt]

Oil Temperature

Hi Turbo6Smackdown,
Thanks for the welcome, this forum seems to be one of the few populated mostly by people who act like adults.

“You are meaning that the hotter oils contamination is due to it being able to more efficiently utilize its detergents, and the cooler running oils contamination is due to by-product from the not so complete combustion right?”
Right, when oil is hotter, more of the contamination is due to oil breakdown products as well as carbon and other substances scavenged by the detergents.

“So am I seeing that the cooler running oil not only doesn't clean as well, but gets filled up just as quick (if not quicker) from the muck out of the combustion chambers?”
I am not sure what the actual percentage difference in the detergent package is between 160° and 180°, but you are right that the cooler your engine the more fuel condensation and wash down into the oil. The main effect of this is a viscosity and film strength reduction due to the solvent effect on the oil. This effect is partially reversible, i.e. if the engine is run at operating temperature for a time, the solvent portion of the fuel will eventually boil out. Unfortunately, some of the additives in the fuel will not. Exactly what these additives do to oil is less well quantified.

“…you state that it does last longer in a cooler environment. Do you mean 'last longer' as in its ability to reduce friction?”
Right. The film strength of the oil is higher at lower temperatures. Remember that oil is a “lubricant” by hydrodynamic separation of the two parts which are attempting to rub. If enough pressure is placed on the parts so that the film strength is overcome, the metal parts WILL touch. That is when the inclusion of an EP (Extreme Pressure) additive is critical.

“I would think not, meaning, that cooler running engines would need more frequent oil changes then right? So pretty much, cooler running engines (in theory) are probably a little dirtier than hot ones?”
The nature of the oil contamination is different between an engine that is run on the cool side of its design temperature than one run at the high end of its design temperature range. Low temp = more fuel washdown and condensation products like acids; high temp = more carbon and degraded oil components like sludge, ash and varnishes. Exactly which is worse is impossible to speculate, you would need to do a study on a specific engine type in controlled circumstances to quantify that. A safe bet is to run the engine at it's design temperature and change the oil around 3000 miles, before the additive package is depleted.

I hope everybody has a great Thanksgiving!

 

[Howard Hoyt]

Turbo6Smackdown asked:
"So do you think this would help, with keeping the heat in, and the cold out, so that a cooler running engine wouldnt mess with the combustion "completeness"? or do you think that this would make it soo hot inside, that we'd have knock all over again, totally negating the 160 t-stat and big radiator mods. Coating the combustion chambers to keep more heat in, sounds like a stupid move to me."

Sorry to get theoretical in that previous post, I forget that the direct focus of all the comments in this forum is their applicability to TR engines. You are probably right in your comment that it would change the combustion characteristics enough to cause a problem. By its very nature, allowing more of the heat to stay in the combustion would change the rate of combustion, which would necessitate changes to the engine. Exactly what would have to be answered by a powertrain engineer. That is outside my experience, not having ever designed an engine from the ground up. With this caveat, we can say that IF an engine was modified to take advantage of this extra energy retained in the cylinder, you could get more power from an equivalent amount of fuel.

 

[A2000RICH]

V6-------before i get into the explanation of diesel oil and the special requirements that vary in the formulation of diesel oil (and why its ok but not ideal for gasoline engines) i'd like to ask you a couple questions-------you state that you use royal purple for moly and rotella for ZDDP-----i know for certain the data on BITOG is sorely outdated---------my experience and testing has shown one thing for sure and that is some of the formulations are changing somewhat rapidly and tests more than 6 months old should be suspect--------- i haven't actually tested royal purple but i will as soon as i can find a bottle--------but i have no reason to believe that royal purple is lacking in ZDDP as long as it isn't SM rated--------Rotella appears to have changed twice in the last 12 months according to the tests i have conducted-------the most ZDDP i have measured was about year ago in the blue/white container with yellow only in the shell logo-------i too read the Hot Rod article that recommended Rotella but that was a couple years ago when there was more zddp in it--------according to tests i have done since july zddp in Rotella is less than castrol tection by a small amount------i'll take bets the royal purple has more zddp than either of them------you said you use royal purple for moly??-------now i am speculating on this just based on previous experience------ like you, I also operate a CNC shop-----mostly MAZAKS and WASINOS------i operate several industrial facilities that compromise over 2 million sqft including the largest industrial property in alamance county NC---------i also own several over the road diesel tractor/trailers------- so i am no newcomer to chemicals-------i spend well into 6 figures a year on oils, lubricants, greases etc---------no product that i can ever remember have i ever seen it contain moly in any significant amount and not be very dark/almost black-------before i go into a factual explanation of diesel oil requirements are you sure royal purple has any meaningful amount of moly??------if so i can't see how it would be clear under any conditions-------especially after spending 10k miles in a late 80's technology engine with a lower than stock 160 degree thermostat...............RC

 

[Turbo6Smackdown]

Again, thank you soo much for your time and advice. You mentioned "Low temp = more fuel washdown and condensation products like acids; high temp = more carbon and degraded oil components like sludge, ash and varnishes. Exactly which is worse is impossible to speculate"

Another question comes to mind is, when you were speaking of the detergents, and how they were specifically designed to be utilized effectively at a specified heat range, and how oil can contain, and encapsulate (or suspend is it?) its normal contaminates, did you mean, that the oil has to operate at a specific temp. range to accomplish this, otherwise it fails? I guess my main question is, is there a difference on how you can contaminate your oil? Does it not contain and suspend the bad particulates if you contaminated it with chamber wash-down, while running it cooler than it was designed to run? Or does the oil need to be brought and maintained to operating temperature to be able to do this. I need to know, cuz I'm quite anal about keeping my gn in one piece, for years to come, and if it means throwing my 180 degree t-stat back in, then I will do it.

But.. lol ( sorry for being soo inquisitive and taking up your time) while in the shower yesterday, I was going over this 'balance' between operating temps and oil ability, and was thinking, are you looking at this theory from a standard cars point of view? (for ex. '02 impala V6, running at 195 degrees, and not ever raced)
If you apply all this crap we've been talking about, to a car that is not abused (or raced, whichever you choose to call it.) you could potentially, with a 160 t-stat, an aluminum race radiator and high speed fans, make this grocery getter run at around 155 degrees at some point. I understand that those temps would surely inhibit complete combustion and the oils ability to do its job. BUT, noone just 'drives' grand nationals. (well, except mr. clark lol) When we pull our cars out, trust me, that engine aint gettin any rest. Or we'd be driving luminas. So, since our modified, high hp engines are running soo hot, would these 160 t stats and aluminum radiators not have the same effect, as if they were mounted on a daily driver? are we going overboard with this theory? Even with these modified cooling systems, I still doubt that were cooling our engines too cold. Theyre forced induction systems, that are run pretty hard, pretty regularly. What do you think Mr. Clark? Do you think it's possible to overcool a gn motor?

 

[GNocide]

The fact I posted that the test results all are on that page, and you didnt look, shows you'd rather argue than read because you're lazy.

lazy is
not reading this thread or other zddp threads on just this board before posting ridiculous ****
although im glad "bob" and "hotrod s" super expensive research and info on how to keep our turbo cars running is cutting edge as is outdated.

it proves you have no merit nor do you know what your talking about except what you read on the interwebs.

who didn't read first?-you didn't!

your semi logical theory's about oil is amusing though

 

[Turbo6Smackdown]

all i know is, that i'll listen to anyone who has a good sounding theory. but for me, it appears as if Mr. Clark has done some pretty dam lengthy legwork, to get to the bottom of sh it here. Not to insult any of the other buick gods, but I havent seen another person alive, go thru this much crap, to see how stuff works. There may be other super inquisitive people here, but none with the time and the resources Mr. Clark has. Trust me, I jump on NOONES bandwagons. I'm on noones side, and work alone, and for myself. I pledge alligence to NOONE except my team leader in the army, and thats that. But I know a thorough man when I see one. And Richard Clark is it. I bet the people at mobil themselves dont even know as much about oil as he does. Hell, he even went back, and changed the valvesprings on ten of his cars, because they were a bit above stock pressure, and the zddp content was reduced. Can you say anal? I doubt thats a man trying to push a fake product. This guy REALLY cares for his cars. All he did was pass the intel on to us. I mean come on man. The dude has 50 grand nationals... I somehow dont think he's hurtin for money. I dont think he needs to 'push' some fake product on us, to make money. He obviously has enough of that man. This guy found a weakness, and then found a solution for it. I'm not hatin on vaders, or stickin up for Mr. Clark, but I'm just callin it like I see it.

 

[at7we2]

all i know is, that i'll listen to anyone who has a good sounding theory. but for me, it appears as if Mr. Clark has done some pretty dam lengthy legwork, to get to the bottom of sh it here. Not to insult any of the other buick gods, but I havent seen another person alive, go thru this much crap, to see how stuff works. There may be other super inquisitive people here, but none with the time and the resources Mr. Clark has. Trust me, I jump on NOONES bandwagons. I'm on noones side, and work alone, and for myself. I pledge alligence to NOONE except my team leader in the army, and thats that. But I know a thorough man when I see one. And Richard Clark is it. I bet the people at mobil themselves dont even know as much about oil as he does. Hell, he even went back, and changed the valvesprings on ten of his cars, because they were a bit above stock pressure, and the zddp content was reduced. Can you say anal? I doubt thats a man trying to push a fake product. This guy REALLY cares for his cars. All he did was pass the intel on to us. I mean come on man. The dude has 50 grand nationals... I somehow dont think he's hurtin for money. I dont think he needs to 'push' some fake product on us, to make money. He obviously has enough of that man. This guy found a weakness, and then found a solution for it. I'm not hatin on vaders, or stickin up for Mr. Clark, but I'm just callin it like I see it.

very well said.

 

[SGRIM]

all i know is, that i'll listen to anyone who has a good sounding theory. but for me, it appears as if Mr. Clark has done some pretty dam lengthy legwork, to get to the bottom of sh it here. Not to insult any of the other buick gods, but I havent seen another person alive, go thru this much crap, to see how stuff works. There may be other super inquisitive people here, but none with the time and the resources Mr. Clark has. Trust me, I jump on NOONES bandwagons. I'm on noones side, and work alone, and for myself. I pledge alligence to NOONE except my team leader in the army, and thats that. But I know a thorough man when I see one. And Richard Clark is it. I bet the people at mobil themselves dont even know as much about oil as he does. Hell, he even went back, and changed the valvesprings on ten of his cars, because they were a bit above stock pressure, and the zddp content was reduced. Can you say anal? I doubt thats a man trying to push a fake product. This guy REALLY cares for his cars. All he did was pass the intel on to us. I mean come on man. The dude has 50 grand nationals... I somehow dont think he's hurtin for money. I dont think he needs to 'push' some fake product on us, to make money. He obviously has enough of that man. This guy found a weakness, and then found a solution for it. I'm not hatin on vaders, or stickin up for Mr. Clark, but I'm just callin it like I see it.

X2:biggrin:

 

[GNocide]

very well said.

x3

 

[onemoretime]

So after reading all this, how much ZDDT should I add to which brand and weight oil, to put in my Grand National on the west coast? Is the ZDDP on ebay the real deal? Thanks for the info in advance.

 

[2QUIK6]

So after reading all this, how much ZDDT should I add to which brand and weight oil, to put in my Grand National on the west coast? Is the ZDDP on ebay the real deal? Thanks for the info in advance.

If its ZDDPPlus on ebay from Kirbans, I know I saw a few ads on there from him for it, its real..but the ebay price was higher than just calling him up direct and buying it.
Just add a 4oz bottle to whatever brand oil you prefer and it will do its job. It formu;ated to have enough ZDDP in a 4oz bottle for a 5qt oil system to bring it to yesteryears SF oil standards.

 

[onemoretime]

I'll order direct then. Thanks for the input. I was thinking or royal purple. I haven't used it so was a little hesitant.

 

[DynoTune]

Not sure if it will still have the zddp package in it, but just found out GM is bringing back EOS under part number 88862586 (not available yet)

 

[RUQWKNF27]

So whats a good conventionsl "non synthetic" motor oil to use with ZDDP or GM EOS for that matter????
I have used Mobil 1 / Kendall/ and now Royal Purple 10x40 XPR Synthetic.
I guess any conventional oit will work if you are using one of these additives cause they are making up for the small bit of phosphorus and zinc the oil has in it these days!! true????

Also how much EOS do you guys add? I think the bottle is 12-16 oz..