after back to back comparison with raybestos blue plate frictions vs alto red w/kolene steels used in the direct clutch drum i have found a new winner.with the same transmission the shift quality with a stock x plate with no drilling has shifted shorter ,crisper ,faster and firmer when compared to the blue plate .examination of the steel plates without the kolenes has furthermore proven that more heat is generated on a gear change with the blue plate verses the alto red.we will not use the blue plate at all in the 2004r as of today and wilol only sell the remaining pieces we have in stock until they are depleted.if the shift quality isnt there with the blue plates without a bigger hole this only proves that they are not worthy of usage in a 2004r transmission.i will now questionv their value in our th 400s where they have also been outperformed by plain borg warners even in transbrake applications.our best combination as of yet has been 7 alto reds w/7 of the thinner forward steels w/kolene facing in the direct drum.7 will not burn or overheat in the direct drum with kolene steels even at hi hp levels and 200 psi maximum line pressure.i never used kolenes until now and will certainly start to test them in our other gm units that use a direct clutch drum .the blue plate is an overpriced,underperformer not worthy of usage in our transmissions in my opinion.
raybestos blue plate clutches are losers
- Thread starter chris718
- Start date
Ahh...
So that's why when i called to order some blues for a direct in a 200 several weeks ago you didn't want to sell them to me...
Chris,
I've never really messed with the blue plates, only big time trans I've messed with was in a monster truck and I believe it had blues, but other than that no BIG power output. Under 800hp is what I will consider "small hp"
I just did a midnight thashing to piece that trans together so didn't pay that much attention and really didn;t know the difference at the time.
I will say that in my limited experience (compared to you gurus).
I've been VERY impressed with the Alto Reds.
I'm hard to convince of these types of things, I want proof, not a vendors propaganda.
I built a TH350 for a buddy several months ago, probably over a year now.
He is running a 3600+ lb '75 Camaro with a pretty stout 383 plus the N2O. RWHP is around 550 if I recall correctly on the juice and the torque is over 650.
Anyway,
I had a pump bolt break off on assembly (last bolt in the trans deal...)
So I had to remove the pump, reinstall it, remove it, etc.. to attempt to extract the bolt, use the pump to line up a drill bit, etc...
Anyway to make a long story short I probably cracked one of the forward rings. (I know I use Teflon now...)
He drove this thing for months, wheels up action, 10 second car on the bottle.
finally was driving home after a nigh at the strip and it started to slip in all forward gears. He drove it over 20 miles in city traffic babying it to get it home.
Pulled trans and called me.
Had him bring it to me, already expected to see toasted forwards.
Pulled it apart and as expected the ring was broken, forwards were burnt, BUT, for the amount of driving he had to do to get it home and as bad as he said it was slipping, I was very impressed that the clutches were as intact as they were.
In truth they would probably have still functioned fine if installed on a new set of steels and with proper pressure to the forward drum. They were pretty blackened but not anything like a set of OEM clutches woud be.
So I was inpressed.
I was sold...
Also,
TransGo (I know nobody likes that name here, but...)
states that in a TH400 a "used stock smooth friction is as good as it gets". Performed better than blues in their testing.
I believe that was before the reds were available.
Also on Alto USA's website,
they show "independant" lab tests on theirs versus other OEM style frictions.
Interestingly the 2 frictions they used (I'm guessing Rays and BW's) one (guessing BW's here) were only slightly less effective than the reds.
I would think for marketing they would try to show a larger difference between a OEM and their own product but I'm guessing it is a pretty good indication of truthfullness in advertising for a change.
In most of my builds (mostly TH350's and 400s) I use BW's. If a customer wants I use the reds.
I haven't had ANY problems.
Actually when I warrantied the above TH350 I put BW frictions back in because I had them on hand, and cannot easily order the reds in individuals, I have to order a set for a complete trans.
Really throws it off when I'm putting 5 in the directs
Thanks for the info,
Jake
So that's why when i called to order some blues for a direct in a 200 several weeks ago you didn't want to sell them to me...
Chris,
I've never really messed with the blue plates, only big time trans I've messed with was in a monster truck and I believe it had blues, but other than that no BIG power output. Under 800hp is what I will consider "small hp"
I just did a midnight thashing to piece that trans together so didn't pay that much attention and really didn;t know the difference at the time.
I will say that in my limited experience (compared to you gurus).
I've been VERY impressed with the Alto Reds.
I'm hard to convince of these types of things, I want proof, not a vendors propaganda.
I built a TH350 for a buddy several months ago, probably over a year now.
He is running a 3600+ lb '75 Camaro with a pretty stout 383 plus the N2O. RWHP is around 550 if I recall correctly on the juice and the torque is over 650.
Anyway,
I had a pump bolt break off on assembly (last bolt in the trans deal...)
So I had to remove the pump, reinstall it, remove it, etc.. to attempt to extract the bolt, use the pump to line up a drill bit, etc...
Anyway to make a long story short I probably cracked one of the forward rings. (I know I use Teflon now...)
He drove this thing for months, wheels up action, 10 second car on the bottle.
finally was driving home after a nigh at the strip and it started to slip in all forward gears. He drove it over 20 miles in city traffic babying it to get it home.
Pulled trans and called me.
Had him bring it to me, already expected to see toasted forwards.
Pulled it apart and as expected the ring was broken, forwards were burnt, BUT, for the amount of driving he had to do to get it home and as bad as he said it was slipping, I was very impressed that the clutches were as intact as they were.
In truth they would probably have still functioned fine if installed on a new set of steels and with proper pressure to the forward drum. They were pretty blackened but not anything like a set of OEM clutches woud be.
So I was inpressed.
I was sold...
Also,
TransGo (I know nobody likes that name here, but...)
states that in a TH400 a "used stock smooth friction is as good as it gets". Performed better than blues in their testing.
I believe that was before the reds were available.
Also on Alto USA's website,
they show "independant" lab tests on theirs versus other OEM style frictions.
Interestingly the 2 frictions they used (I'm guessing Rays and BW's) one (guessing BW's here) were only slightly less effective than the reds.
I would think for marketing they would try to show a larger difference between a OEM and their own product but I'm guessing it is a pretty good indication of truthfullness in advertising for a change.
In most of my builds (mostly TH350's and 400s) I use BW's. If a customer wants I use the reds.
I haven't had ANY problems.
Actually when I warrantied the above TH350 I put BW frictions back in because I had them on hand, and cannot easily order the reds in individuals, I have to order a set for a complete trans.
Really throws it off when I'm putting 5 in the directs
Thanks for the info,
Jake
i dont like selling stuff im not comfortable with.the results have been horrific in t braked 400s .id rather use plain borgs in the direct drum although i use alto reds.2/3 shift gets real loooooooonnnnnnnnggggggggwith them and scares me much like a car with a great hydraulic brake system and inferior brake pads.
77 cruiser
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
B.T. hasn`t chimed in
I`m suprised Bruce hasn`t commented on this, he was & maybe still is a fan of the Blue clutches.
Jim
I`m suprised Bruce hasn`t commented on this, he was & maybe still is a fan of the Blue clutches.
Jim
2quiktocare
Tech Forum Advisor
- Joined
- May 12, 2003
Nothing to reply to. We have had tremendous success with the blues and have yet to have a problem in any manner with the them. Anecdotal reports are just that, personal feelings and not what is considered scientific information. Not that if a lab tested and proved a superior product was there, we would be the first to jump on board, but until then, we will stick with what we have built our success on. Mark
77 cruiser
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
No flames , just wondering. Thanks Mark.
Jim
Jim
2quiktocare
Tech Forum Advisor
- Joined
- May 12, 2003
LOL, it's all good Cruiser
Bruce,
Let me get some more input from you if possible.
Maybe jives with what Chris is saying, maybe not.
You guys have different theories on things, I've noted since hanging out here.
First,
Most vendors claim the blue is NOT for street use, race only deal.
Raybestos claims it will take more heat, better "bite" etc..
Chris claims he is seeing evidence of more heat being applied to the steels using blues.
Might this be caused by the blues taking longer to apply, but once they do apply actually "grabbing" harder. Doing as they claim but maybe a slightly slower apply???
They are a kevlar mixed material right?
Kevlar is a better holding material than a shifting material as I understand, right?
Next,
You like to use the blues in the Directs and keep a stock count with thick steels...
Here's where I tend to side with your theories more than most other HP builders.
The steel is effetively a heat sink.
You thin them too much and it is like having a brake rotor that is too thin and can then more easily warp, etc..
So a thicker steel here is better.
Maybe the blue plates necessitate the thicker steels because of the added heat, but a stock or red plate might allow a few more plates?
You said trying to run additional plates in the direct will burn them everytime.
Is this the blues, or all types of clutches?
I'm sure you have done some testing
Just a few questions and some thoughts on how maybe both of you guys are right using your methods.
Two ways to skin a cat...
I'm not sure what type of tests transgo did but they claim in their auto trans fundamentals book, that the used BW's did better than Blues in a TH400.
I thought that was interesting....
However in the Th400 I did long ago the stock clutches were SMOKED in the "spare" transd after 1 pass, they just let go and it slipped to the moon.
13,000 rpm on a 510 BBC
But I pulled the clutches out of the "primary" trans and they were obviously a HP clutch, looked different, I assumed Kevlar at the time, and dropped them in the "spare" tranny, and reassembled, it was fine after that.
They would typically hold up for 3-4 weekends.
Maybe a pressure problem came about and caused the stock clutches to be smoked, but in that scenario, I wouldn't hesitate to use a "race" only clutch anyway....
So basically my questions are:
1. Are the blues kevlar based?
2. Do you believe they CAUSE more heat.
3. What clutch types did you test when testing different pack counts?
Thanks.
Let me get some more input from you if possible.
Maybe jives with what Chris is saying, maybe not.
You guys have different theories on things, I've noted since hanging out here.
First,
Most vendors claim the blue is NOT for street use, race only deal.
Raybestos claims it will take more heat, better "bite" etc..
Chris claims he is seeing evidence of more heat being applied to the steels using blues.
Might this be caused by the blues taking longer to apply, but once they do apply actually "grabbing" harder. Doing as they claim but maybe a slightly slower apply???
They are a kevlar mixed material right?
Kevlar is a better holding material than a shifting material as I understand, right?
Next,
You like to use the blues in the Directs and keep a stock count with thick steels...
Here's where I tend to side with your theories more than most other HP builders.
The steel is effetively a heat sink.
You thin them too much and it is like having a brake rotor that is too thin and can then more easily warp, etc..
So a thicker steel here is better.
Maybe the blue plates necessitate the thicker steels because of the added heat, but a stock or red plate might allow a few more plates?
You said trying to run additional plates in the direct will burn them everytime.
Is this the blues, or all types of clutches?
I'm sure you have done some testing
Just a few questions and some thoughts on how maybe both of you guys are right using your methods.
Two ways to skin a cat...
I'm not sure what type of tests transgo did but they claim in their auto trans fundamentals book, that the used BW's did better than Blues in a TH400.
I thought that was interesting....
However in the Th400 I did long ago the stock clutches were SMOKED in the "spare" transd after 1 pass, they just let go and it slipped to the moon.
13,000 rpm on a 510 BBC
But I pulled the clutches out of the "primary" trans and they were obviously a HP clutch, looked different, I assumed Kevlar at the time, and dropped them in the "spare" tranny, and reassembled, it was fine after that.
They would typically hold up for 3-4 weekends.
Maybe a pressure problem came about and caused the stock clutches to be smoked, but in that scenario, I wouldn't hesitate to use a "race" only clutch anyway....
So basically my questions are:
1. Are the blues kevlar based?
2. Do you believe they CAUSE more heat.
3. What clutch types did you test when testing different pack counts?
Thanks.
WE4
TBcom Admin /Prayers NYFD/NYPD
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
Well
1) No they are NOT Kevlar based and I do not believe in Kevlar anything, in a trans anyway.
2) No they DO NOT CAUSE more heat. Kolene steels are a joke too. The gentlemen who discussed the thickness of the steels, he has it down, as they are the key There are a heat sink and just as important as the clutch itself. I will reitterate for the bilzillionth time, The steels are the key.
3) All clutch types were tested but More clutches in direct IN A 2004r, are NOT needed and in fact hurt the situation as we are back to thinner steels again which is NOT the way to go. All of our testing was done in labs under completely controlled conditions.
I work very close with Alto and very close with Raybestos.
I am not blowing smoke.
Bruce
WE4
PTS XTREME
1) No they are NOT Kevlar based and I do not believe in Kevlar anything, in a trans anyway.
2) No they DO NOT CAUSE more heat. Kolene steels are a joke too. The gentlemen who discussed the thickness of the steels, he has it down, as they are the key
There are a heat sink and just as important as the clutch itself. I will reitterate for the bilzillionth time, The steels are the key. 3) All clutch types were tested but More clutches in direct IN A 2004r, are NOT needed and in fact hurt the situation as we are back to thinner steels again which is NOT the way to go. All of our testing was done in labs under completely controlled conditions.
I work very close with Alto and very close with Raybestos.
I am not blowing smoke.
Bruce
WE4
PTS XTREME
furthermore the grooves in the blue plate reduce the surface contact area between the held and driven members of the clutch pack reducings the effective area of the clutch pack that holds reducing performance and thermal heat conductivity on gear changes.forget the lab nonsense bruce ,we pulled out the blues and installede reds with the same trans ,oil ,filter etc.and the proof is in the road test.there aint a machine alive that will enable you to feel the differences between one and the other.ive seen cars make enough rear wheel hp on the dyno to run a 10 / 0 and the car wont leave the 11 s alone.maybe your tractor oil is keeping them from burning?i dont believe so but these are the things we have found when used with our calibration which doesnt include big clutch feed holes either.not looking to fight but just fed up with stuff thats overpriced and dont work imo.ill tell frank the same thing.the things are junk.alto red is a much better product,and as far as the grooves reducing drag thats true but the clutch pack speed in first is rarely below 4000 rpms ,the only speed the blues reduce drag at.ill split the lab cost with you .......6 blues with stock steels verses 6 reds or 7 reds with kolene steels.
WE4
TBcom Admin /Prayers NYFD/NYPD
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
Forget the lab?
Forget the lab tests? WTF? That is the ONLY "controlled" way to measure and test. The grooves also serve to disperse oil on apply. I very much support Alto and work with them very close but you cannot argue SCIENTIFIC FACT. Period!.
That is all I have to say on this matter. I am done.
Bruce
WE4
PTS XTREME
Forget the lab tests? WTF? That is the ONLY "controlled" way to measure and test. The grooves also serve to disperse oil on apply. I very much support Alto and work with them very close but you cannot argue SCIENTIFIC FACT. Period!.
That is all I have to say on this matter. I am done.
Bruce
WE4
PTS XTREME
what is the scientific fact?the transmission shifts better with reds and generates less heat during the transition to 3 rd gear.an increase in heat absorbed/exchanged at/by the steel proves that the slip time between the clutch and steel is greater with the blue plate verses the red.
2quiktocare
Tech Forum Advisor
- Joined
- May 12, 2003
This is all subjective comment and has nothing to do with FACT. It is a matter of preference and there is no right or wrong. If someone FEELS they are getting better results from a cheaper part, that is all fine and well. We at PTS prefer to continue using the Blues and will until we find a better component to use. Our philosophy is quality over cost. The minimal difference in cost is not a major concern. Also, in your past "testing" you condemned tractor fluid as burning at a much lower temp than type F so, that wouldn't be what saves the blues. Plain and simple. To come on and condemn a part because your backyard testing gives you a sense of better performance, is one: irresponsible, two: without merit, and 3: totally unfounded in any measurable value to this discussion. This is not a personal condemnation in anyway, rather it is a point of I need some unbiased and clinical information before I would change our production values. Mark
COST DOESNT MATTER TO ME IN THIS CASE.QUALITY OF DIVIDENDS PAID IN RETURN FOR MY PARTS SELECTION AND SCRUTINY DOES.THE BLUE PLATE IS TOO HARD.THE ALTO RED IS JUST RIGHT FOR HIGH DRUM METHODS OF DRIVING A SUNGEAR IN A COMPOUND PLANETARY SYSTEM.THIS IS IN NO WAY AN ATTACK ON OTHERS CHOICE OF MATERIALS WHICH I FEEL ARE INFERIOR ,BUT AN HONEST ASSESSMENT OF RESULTS AFTER DOING UNBIASED TESTING. HEY IF YOU GUYS BELIEVE IN MACHINES OVER IN CAR TEST RESULTS THEN WHY ARE YOU TESTING TOUR TRANSMISSIONS IN A CAR VERSES ON A DYNO?REAL WORLD IN CAR TESTING IS THE ONLY WAY TO FEEL THE RESULTS THAT THE CUSTOMER WILL FEEL.A SOFTER CLUTCH GRABS QUICKER AND RELEASES MORE OIL OUT OF ITSELF ON A GEAR CHANGE WHEN IT IS APPLIED AND COMPRESSED,AND REDUCES HEAT GENERATED ON A RATIO CHANGE.THE ALTO RED HOLDS OIL IN ITSELF THE BLUE MUCH MUCH LESS .THE ALTO RED IS SMOOTH AND DOESNT HAVE GROOVES THE BLUE DOES AND THIS MEANS IT HOLDS EVEN LESS OIL IN ITSELF TO BE SQUEEZED OUT WHEN COMPRESSED DEGRADING SHIFT QUALITY AND INCREASING HEAT GENERATED.BRUCE YOU TAUGHT ME ABOUT THE SPLINE CRACKING PROBLEM IN THE O/D PLANETARY,WHICH I NEVER SAW AND PROBABLY WOULDNT IF YOU DIDNT POINT IT OUT ,SO NOW LEARN SOMETHING FROM ME.A HIGH PRICED PIECE AINT ALWAYS BETTER THAN A WELL RESEARCHED PRODUCT THAT COST LESS .AS A MATTER OF FACT THIS ALLOWS US TO BE A FEW BUCKS CHEAPER AND IN NO WAY SKIMP ON QUALITY.WITH OUR CALIBRATIONS THE BLUE PLATE HAS SHOWN US TO BE OUTPERFORMED EVERY TIME VERSES THE ALTO RED,EVEN IF IT IS OF LESS COST TO THE REBUILDER.
Bruce,
Gonna have to call you out here...
Did it to Chris once so now you...
You said Chris was making a blanket statement about the blues vs. others.
You said the Kolene's were junk....
So we have 2 blanket statements going.
I've never used Kolene's in my builds. Just a theory I have but I prefer to use stock steels. Kinda goes back to my brake drum theory about heat and a heatsink.
Anyway,
Is there anyway you can post or email the lab results of the clutch materials.
I'm interested in the testing procedures, etc..
basically what tests were done.
Load testing, apply speed, heat resistance, etc..
I would rather read your results than an advertisement.
Also,
How do you guys prep the Kolene's in testing.
I've been told by a reputable builder (PG stuff in VERY fast cars) who likes Kolenes that you MUST scotchbrite them or they will glaze the clutches.
This goes back to a post a few months ago I was asking about sanding steels.
Transgo (I know I said it...) recommends sanding or glass beading steels says they break-in faster, run cooler, etc...
You and Chris prefer to not sand the surface.
(something you guys DO agree on... )
I used to sand the surface with 320-400 grit wet in the solvent washer but quit since you guys don't recommend it. OEM's obviously don't do it...
Gonna have to call you out here...
Did it to Chris once so now you...
You said Chris was making a blanket statement about the blues vs. others.
You said the Kolene's were junk....
So we have 2 blanket statements going.
I've never used Kolene's in my builds. Just a theory I have but I prefer to use stock steels. Kinda goes back to my brake drum theory about heat and a heatsink.
Anyway,
Is there anyway you can post or email the lab results of the clutch materials.
I'm interested in the testing procedures, etc..
basically what tests were done.
Load testing, apply speed, heat resistance, etc..
I would rather read your results than an advertisement.
Also,
How do you guys prep the Kolene's in testing.
I've been told by a reputable builder (PG stuff in VERY fast cars) who likes Kolenes that you MUST scotchbrite them or they will glaze the clutches.
This goes back to a post a few months ago I was asking about sanding steels.
Transgo (I know I said it...) recommends sanding or glass beading steels says they break-in faster, run cooler, etc...
You and Chris prefer to not sand the surface.
(something you guys DO agree on...
)I used to sand the surface with 320-400 grit wet in the solvent washer but quit since you guys don't recommend it. OEM's obviously don't do it...
sanded steels in the hi drum do apply the direct clutches much quicker and aggressive.i just think it is smarter to change them out for new ones as it costs more but saves time.also i feel the sanding breaks off the oil film on the clutches and steels and causes inconsistent shift quality.also they have exchanged heat too many times much like an old frying pan ,changing thermal transfer rates .best results are WITH KOLENE STEELS AND ALTO REDS IN THE HI DRUM.
sanded steels in the hi drum do apply the direct clutches much quicker and aggressive.i just think it is smarter to change them out for new ones as it costs more but saves time.also i feel the sanding breaks off the oil film on the clutches and steels and causes inconsistent shift quality.also they have exchanged heat too many times much like an old frying pan ,changing thermal transfer rates .best results are WITH KOLENE STEELS AND ALTO REDS IN THE HI DRUM.
Chris,
I was sanding new steels too. Just lightly with fairly fine paper.
I also do the same to sprag races so the oil CAN move out of the way and the sprag lock quicker, so it can lock before the clutch does, In a TH350 or 400 application to prevent broken sprags in a hard shifting setup.
I was sanding new steels too. Just lightly with fairly fine paper.
I also do the same to sprag races so the oil CAN move out of the way and the sprag lock quicker, so it can lock before the clutch does, In a TH350 or 400 application to prevent broken sprags in a hard shifting setup.
2quiktocare
Tech Forum Advisor
- Joined
- May 12, 2003
Like I said, it's personal opinion, no FACTS, just personal preference and that is all. Why should it be that just because you say so, it is reality? Give some scientific data, not just "I FELT it shifts better". You have your methods, and Bruce has his. Why can't you realize that and just let it go? Why is it you have to be right, when there is no right or wrong? If there is any difference at all with temps or co-efficient of frictions they would be so minute you would need some very sensitive equipment to measure them accurately, as well as controlled standardized load applications to do a true comparison. Anyone can say anything, and many do to get attention, but if you don't have FACT to back it up, it's all just anecdotal and not of much use other than a point of argument based on personal need.
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