total seal rings
- Thread starter all4gss
- Start date
Chris McDade
Active Member
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2001
I don't think you would gain any hp by going to a different ring set. There is nothing wrong with the gm rings. They are good for alot of hp.
Good luck.
Good luck.
Oh, i was under the impression that there must be some advantage to compensate for what i assumed to be the extra expense of total seal rings? You would think you could achieve higher boost levels and more power without... well i dunno.. at some point the boost would prolly shoot the air/fuel past the rings into the crank case.. of course at that extreme you will prolly have already shot a rod through the block huh 
Thanks anywayz.
Keith
Thanks anywayz.Keith
R
Russ Merritt
Guest
I too am a firm believer of "file fit" rings over total seal. Your stock rings are more than fine, don't touch em.
Intercooler
New Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
I don't have my motor running yet but did get the TSS top ring gapless Total-Seals. FWIW you can run wider ring gaps (actually they suggest it), pull more vacuum, have 1% leakdown when the ring seating powder is used and eliminate blow-by (no oil coming out the breathers after a pull dripping on the valve covers). I am surprised Lee Thompson hasn't chimed in. They are expensive though as I paid $225.00 for mine. Oh, BTW the Total-Seals are still file-fit FYI. Can't knock them unless you tried them
T
Turbo 6 Justin
Guest
all4gss I would not suggest themfor you at all, you have very little if anything to gain, and the stockers will work great. if they ever get tired then it is probably full rebuild time anyway and some file fits are probably the right choice.
I do have a question for a few of you that do run these I have heard from a few very well known engine builders that the total seals probably use as much HP as they add to the equation and wear the bores faster. I would be interested to know what kind of torque it takes to turn over a motor with total seals vs file fit moly's of course I am interested in motors with fully seated rings. What I have heard and what I tend to believe is that with TS rings it may take 10-20 more FT lbs to turn the motor over but they do have great leakdown results, with the molys the leakdown is going to be a bit more but the torque to spin the motor is less, there must be a tradeoff,
for my winter project full race motor it will be file fits for me, I think????
I do have a question for a few of you that do run these I have heard from a few very well known engine builders that the total seals probably use as much HP as they add to the equation and wear the bores faster. I would be interested to know what kind of torque it takes to turn over a motor with total seals vs file fit moly's of course I am interested in motors with fully seated rings. What I have heard and what I tend to believe is that with TS rings it may take 10-20 more FT lbs to turn the motor over but they do have great leakdown results, with the molys the leakdown is going to be a bit more but the torque to spin the motor is less, there must be a tradeoff,
for my winter project full race motor it will be file fits for me, I think????
REDS HOT AIR
Buick Tweaker
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
dont know where that info comes from..
i didnt check that on any of the motors i've used total seals but it has to be bs..
the oil control and regular compression ring of the total seals are speed pro rings so no change there and the ring that seals is a regular ring that is cut down for a second ring comparable to a oil control ring to go in the same groove with it
dont see no extra drag there
the better seal you can get on the cylinder the more torque you can make down low and our cars depend on lots of torque to get these boats moving.
your call but i will never use another regular set of rings in a boosted motor.
i didnt check that on any of the motors i've used total seals but it has to be bs..
the oil control and regular compression ring of the total seals are speed pro rings so no change there and the ring that seals is a regular ring that is cut down for a second ring comparable to a oil control ring to go in the same groove with it
dont see no extra drag there
the better seal you can get on the cylinder the more torque you can make down low and our cars depend on lots of torque to get these boats moving.
your call but i will never use another regular set of rings in a boosted motor.
Intercooler
New Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
I agree with Red's 100%. Let's look at the ring package:
-Bottom oil controls are the same as any other ring set like Sealed-Power. Actually I believe they are Sealed-Power because Total-Seal does not make any rings, they just modify existing sets.
-Second ring is just like any Sealed-Power or other ring etc...
-Top ring is a standard style ring like above with machining done to it so it has a groove or lip if you want to call it that. Then you have what looks exactly like a low tension oil control ring that is cut on an angle and sits in that groove 180º turned in the oppposite direction of the top rings gap.
When I set up my rings they suggested a larger gap so I have .027"/.023" gaps which is pretty large! So the only thing we added to the equation is a low tension ring piggy-backing the top ring in the opposite direction. I think these claims are BS.
-Bottom oil controls are the same as any other ring set like Sealed-Power. Actually I believe they are Sealed-Power because Total-Seal does not make any rings, they just modify existing sets.
-Second ring is just like any Sealed-Power or other ring etc...
-Top ring is a standard style ring like above with machining done to it so it has a groove or lip if you want to call it that. Then you have what looks exactly like a low tension oil control ring that is cut on an angle and sits in that groove 180º turned in the oppposite direction of the top rings gap.
When I set up my rings they suggested a larger gap so I have .027"/.023" gaps which is pretty large! So the only thing we added to the equation is a low tension ring piggy-backing the top ring in the opposite direction. I think these claims are BS.
I have used the Total Seal rings in my car. My engine builder is a high end professional builder. My motor had 10k ( street race miles) on it when I blew the stock head gaskets and blew graphite though out the motor, so a refresh was needed. I was still able to get by with a hone, mainly to prep the .020 bore for ring seating. I really have no complaints about them, I figure, if they seal great, less blow by, less crankcase pressure, less leaks, especially at 25 lbs +. And I have seen very high vacuum on my engine.
I was told by my engine builder last week, that they talked to Total Seal earlier in the year at a trade convention, and they said they have acheived 11-13 hp on the dyno on turbo buick motors from using the gapless rings on the top ring vice the second ring. So they sent my rings back and got top rings.
I was told by my engine builder last week, that they talked to Total Seal earlier in the year at a trade convention, and they said they have acheived 11-13 hp on the dyno on turbo buick motors from using the gapless rings on the top ring vice the second ring. So they sent my rings back and got top rings.
We used TS's in the race truck 557ci, 1000hp w/ n2o and after a full year of racing (150 passes or so) there was less than 1% of leakdown at the end of the year. After re-ringing it every winter we called TS and they said that all we needed to do was rehone the cylinders and Scotch Brite the rings and we could reuse them. YEP, after a year of racing with the used rings, still less than 1% leakdown..
Gapless rings are GREAT and I recommend them on any rebuild..
ks
Gapless rings are GREAT and I recommend them on any rebuild..
ks
REDS HOT AIR
Buick Tweaker
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
sealed power / speed pro same people..
they told me on the phone when i tlked to t.s. that they were by them..thats how i knew that..
they also old me before about reusing them when i was running them in a 12.8 to 1 compression sb 400 so when i had a block problem on my 400 i put them back in my new bock and they worked just fine...only problem i had was my buddy's talking pu pu on me for reusing rings
they told me on the phone when i tlked to t.s. that they were by them..thats how i knew that..
they also old me before about reusing them when i was running them in a 12.8 to 1 compression sb 400 so when i had a block problem on my 400 i put them back in my new bock and they worked just fine...only problem i had was my buddy's talking pu pu on me for reusing rings
T
Turbo 6 Justin
Guest
I know when to admit that maybe I was wrong and after doing a lot of reading last night I am starting to see things your way. I still think there is some downside to them, it doesn't seam to be power, leakdown, durability, maybe cost is the only downside. One more question are any OEM's using them and I suppose I'll call total seal today but anyone know they make the top rings, do they take existing rings from sealed power/speed pro and mill/shave themdown. I suppose what's an extra few $$$ when building a race motor. if they work they work
Intercooler
New Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
I think OEM's may never use them. They take time to machine and may not be cost effective for them. Total-Seal uses off the shelf rings and machines them (their site even says it) for the second part of the gapless ring set. If you get a second ring gapless set the cost goes down to like $130.00 but the top ring gapless is the latest and greatest but so is the cost! Also the majority of wear is down in the bores where the piston rocks, correct? Up where the top ring is I doubt it doing much.
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