turbo 400's, flywheels, and Thrust bearings
- Thread starter karolko
- Start date
Here is another way of viewing this without me giving my opinions.Close your eyes and picture :a properly set up and spinning oiled crankshaft (clearances etc )in a block with bearings in place.a flexplate bolted to the crank flange, a torque converter with its three converter mounting pads mounted to the flexplate,the hub of the converter indexed properly(not binding or bottomed out in the cranks counterbore for it ,all as 1 assembly.now expand your image to include the effects of torque converter charge oil and trans internal component rotation and incurred loads in directions relevant.now add the pistons and rods and try to understand more clearly what is really going on.
Keep in mind simple physics here. If you push on something with 100lbs of force and it doesnt move it is pushing back with 100lbs of force. If it moves and then stops it temporarily was pushing back with less force then it was pushing back with the same force. JW and other SFI wheels do flex. Ive seen sparks on the line from high hp applications on the t-brake. The wheel was flexing enough for the bolts to hit the back of the block
Brian your very wise.Check this out.Armed with that information think about what part of the thrust bearing is normally loaded during proper operation and where the converter wants to go when it gets pumped up with oil under high pressure.How does these forces interract on one another if at all and which is higher and when if at all different.Guys , you really don't know what im all about (im a newb here) but let me assure you , its not my first T400 build here. Im not here to argue just answering the question with factual data.
What I posted about pressure fluctuations are factual (we are talking about race transmissions with constant system pressure). The cooler/converter pressures and details do happen and if you do not want to agree then its up to you to prove me wrong. This hapens in the real world NOT on the dyno. I have spent thousands of dollars and hundereds of hours with this problem and im not saying this to pound my chest, its good information.
Yes the cooler circuit is defective as it was never originally designed to run at constant pressure so we have to make changes to make it work (external pressure regulator).
Flexplates that offer flex are a good idea is my entire point and for the orignal poster , its not a bad idea to have one instead of the solid wheel you are currently running especially behind a Buick V6 with that tiny little thrust bearing. Its up to the transmission builder to help control the "flex" rate and distance.
Here's another one for you to think about DonWG. Explain in an application where the line pressure is 180 lbs how its possible to see a spike when coming off the transbrake to 240 psi? I'll leave you with that and that is not some dreamed up scenario either.
Hutch
What I posted about pressure fluctuations are factual (we are talking about race transmissions with constant system pressure). The cooler/converter pressures and details do happen and if you do not want to agree then its up to you to prove me wrong. This hapens in the real world NOT on the dyno. I have spent thousands of dollars and hundereds of hours with this problem and im not saying this to pound my chest, its good information.
Yes the cooler circuit is defective as it was never originally designed to run at constant pressure so we have to make changes to make it work (external pressure regulator).
Flexplates that offer flex are a good idea is my entire point and for the orignal poster , its not a bad idea to have one instead of the solid wheel you are currently running especially behind a Buick V6 with that tiny little thrust bearing. Its up to the transmission builder to help control the "flex" rate and distance.
Here's another one for you to think about DonWG. Explain in an application where the line pressure is 180 lbs how its possible to see a spike when coming off the transbrake to 240 psi? I'll leave you with that and that is not some dreamed up scenario either.
Hutch
ttypewe4jim
pa turbo buick racing
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2002
This isnt the same "Hutch" from yellowbullet is it?
Hutch glad you have come here.You have gone beyond what my original cooler /pump tests were going to include. Revisiting some old ideas in the form of lines etched on my meat loaf(brain) have made me re aware of the fact that converter feed hole orifice is not the only thing that fully controls converter charge pressures.I now intend on changing input shaft exit hole diameters as well as cooler exit hole diameters due to your input and an in car intermittent 150 psi cooler reading I got from a trans that had 80 psi on the dyno in the cooler and 165 psi line.I am starting to believe fluid dynamics and direction on gear changes can alter exit rates and spike pressure .you just chucked another log in my thinking furnace.Guys please share your ideas here sometimes even a small thing can give me a new direction to run in.I live for this.
ttypewe4jim
pa turbo buick racing
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2002
Its a good thing ..... I welcome you to the buick forums and we value your input and suggestions you give to this community :biggrin:
..... I welcome you to the buick forums and we value your input and suggestions you give to this community :biggrin:
turbobitt
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2002
Chris,
I have not forgoten about you and hope that we still can meet up in the near future to do some testing. I have to do a few jobs that will keep me buisy in the next few weeks but Bison and I are still looking forward to this testing.
Allan G.
everytime we go into one of these long threads i always have to throw one of these in so lets get it out of the way now YouTube - Stelios Kazantzidis & Marinella - Emeis mazi tha zhsoume
YouTube - Stelios Kazantzidis & Marinella - Emeis mazi tha zhsoumeOK. First you state that you don't want to argue with me in particular. Now you're throwing a new scenario at me. Does that mean you want me to reply to it? Or, would my replying constitute arguing with you? I really don't want to make anyone feel uncomfortable. On this website, people typically like to throw around ideas and see what comes of it. If my replying makes anyone uncomfortable, I'd rather not reply.Guys , you really don't know what im all about (im a newb here) but let me assure you , its not my first T400 build here. Im not here to argue just answering the question with factual data.
What I posted about pressure fluctuations are factual (we are talking about race transmissions with constant system pressure). The cooler/converter pressures and details do happen and if you do not want to agree then its up to you to prove me wrong. This hapens in the real world NOT on the dyno. I have spent thousands of dollars and hundereds of hours with this problem and im not saying this to pound my chest, its good information.
Yes the cooler circuit is defective as it was never originally designed to run at constant pressure so we have to make changes to make it work (external pressure regulator).
Flexplates that offer flex are a good idea is my entire point and for the orignal poster , its not a bad idea to have one instead of the solid wheel you are currently running especially behind a Buick V6 with that tiny little thrust bearing. Its up to the transmission builder to help control the "flex" rate and distance.
Here's another one for you to think about DonWG. Explain in an application where the line pressure is 180 lbs how its possible to see a spike when coming off the transbrake to 240 psi? I'll leave you with that and that is not some dreamed up scenario either.
Hutch
KL Mallender
Certified Dumb****
- Joined
- Apr 16, 2007
Nope, any and everybody thats known me knows " I Can'ts Dance"
and what is this thing called "broom"???
Sweep'ns for peep's that have their s##t in order, Lord knows I won't be ready till' sumpthin freazza's over real bad, hope that ain't comming too soon :tongue:
Proofs are in da 'puddin', TurboBuick.com can and has answered more technical questions with correct answers than most any other "board" I can think of, I don't know of a more secure banking institution than here.
Kevin.
and what is this thing called "broom"???
Sweep'ns for peep's that have their s##t in order, Lord knows I won't be ready till' sumpthin freazza's over real bad, hope that ain't comming too soon :tongue:
Proofs are in da 'puddin', TurboBuick.com can and has answered more technical questions with correct answers than most any other "board" I can think of, I don't know of a more secure banking institution than here.
Kevin.
Yes welcome your input is always welcomed here!!!
Yes, I've thought about Newton's Laws a few times here and there. Yes there must be an opposing force to make the flexplate flex, that was my main point in my first post. In the static case that is all there is to say, which keeps it simple, which is why I stopped there until Hutch pointed out that in the real case it takes time for those forces to be applied. The force required, and thus the force needing to be opposed, and thus the force on the crank thrust bearing, is proportional to the amount of flex. The force is given by the amount of flex, not by how fast or slowly it flexes. However, it takes some time to achieve that flex because now whatever is pushing on the flexplate has to move with the flexplate to keep pushing on it, and thus some time to achieve full deflection and thus full force on the crank, and it takes some time to unflex, as well. That means that the force on the crank rises from zero to the max value over some period of time, not instantly as you seem to be saying.
