1987 TR very sick and hestitating horribly! Need help in Southern Indiana!!!

[jawort0]

PLEASE HELP!!!

I have had my 87 Buick Regal Limited Turbo for about two months and now it is horribly hesitating when under full throttle! I bought the car from a fellow board member and the car pulled strongly previously. I was driving home today and throttled the car right before getting to the house. The car revved up and both boost gauges came on (the yellow and red - I have a digital dash). The car is now hestitating terribly when under full or near full throttle. The car seems to be driving fine when driven normally. When under full or near full throttle both boost lights come on. When I got home I checked to ensure the full pump will run when the grey wire is hooked to the alternator post. I checked the hose on the aftermarket adjustable fuel pressure regulator and it is in place. I checked all the other vacuum lines and I did not see anything wrong. The car has an adjustable wastegate. The previous owner set this and said it was probably set to 15 psi. I have never readjusted the wastegate or anything else. I disconnected the wastegate rod and the wastegate moves very freely and is not stuck. The car is not throwing any fault codes.

Can anyone please let me know what to look for? I run only 93 octane since I have had the car. The car was warmed up real well. The temp outside was 80 deg F. I assume I will need to check compression. What is the normal compression when cranking? Any special procedure? What else could be wrong if not a blown head gasket? The car has the following mods

LT1 MAF & Translator
30 lb injectors
Aftermarket Chip (not sure which kind)
Adjustable Fuel Pressure Regulator (AccuFab)

The car does not have a Scanmaster, boost gauge, fuel pressure gauge or any other aftermarket gauges.

I can not see any smoke coming from the tail pipe when idling or when under full or near full throttle.

Is hearing what I think is turbo surge ( a "shush" "shush" Shush") normal on decel? It has always done this if I let off the accelerator quickly, which I try not to do. I cannot tell it has gotten worse.

I can floor the car right now and the car will only climb a couple of MPH in a couple seconds.

Is there someone in SOUTHERN INDIANA, INDIANAPOLIS, CINCINNATI or LOUISVILLE who would mind stopping by and helping a Turbo Regal newbie?

If not, can you fine people on the bulletin board help me out and let me know what to look for?

Thanks, Joe

 

[jawort0]

Vacuum Lines!!!!!!!

I think the issue is vacuum lines. Since the fuel pressure regulator is vacuum controlled, I am assuming this can really effect WOT performance. I have 32 psi of fuel at idle and was not building any fuel pressure with boost. Now I am up to 40-ish psi of fuel at WOT. Some of the vacuum lines appear original, so I am going to go through and replace all of them. Hopefully this will allow me to get to 50ish WOT psi of fuel, which is what I am supposed to get according to the Peter Hoffman book. Please let me know if this is not correct.

Question - There appears to be a vacuum line that directly on the side of the throttle body pointing to the passenger side. Is something supposed to be connected to this? If not, is it supposed to be plugged? Mine is neither, but I cannot feel any vacuum being pulled on it.

Thanks! Joe

 

[Heg87t]

Here's the vacuum line diagram.
http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/engine/vacdiags/vac_federal.jpg

Read all the other information on this web site twice and you will learn a whole lot about these cars.

Fuel pressure at idle with the vacuum line pulled off and plugged should be about 43 pounds.

Sounds like your fuel pump is dying. Do not get into boost until you figure this out!

 

[Slow91z]

Email KipAsplund@aol.com

He's the man, he can help, he's in Southern IN, Jeffesonville to be exact.

Where do you live??

 

[jawort0]

I am located in Seymour Indiana which is an hour north of Louisville KY and an hour south of Indianapolis IN.

Jeffersonville is an hour away.

I mis-spoke in one of my previous readings. My fuel pump was constantly reading 32 psi with or without boost. Now I am at 40ish psi at WOT. One of the previous owners had disconnected the vacuum tank so one vacuum line was venting to ambient. I think it had been pinched off and then loosened up. I am going to replace all the vacuum lines today so I can hopefully pull 50ish psi at WOT.

The 32 psi at idle is with the boost line in place on the Accufab fuel pressure regulator. With all the vacuum lines replaced I will set the fuel pressure at idle to 43 psi per the recommendation.

Thanks, Joe

 

[Slow91z]

Set the fuel pressure to 43 with the vac line OFF of the regulator.

When you hook the vac line back to it the pressure will decrease.

Then when ever you get into the boost, the fuel pressure should rise 1:1 with boost, so if you are at 10 psi of boost fuel pressure should be 53 psi.

If your car doesn't make the required fuel pressure while making boost you will kill it, period.

So if you are making 15 psi you should have 58 psi. Not 58ish.

And get with Kip.

 

["Turbo-T"]

The car does not have a Scanmaster, boost gauge, fuel pressure gauge or any other aftermarket gauges.

Ok before you beat on the car anymore GET THESE THINGS YOU DO NOT HAVE!!!

If you had a Scanmaster you could see if your car is going lean on the top end or not. That would help us to help you better. Also will help you not blow your car up.

A Scanmaster should be MANDATORY in any TR, doesn't matter if you're racing or not. A boost gauge needs to be next and you should also (IMO) invest in a fuel PSI gauge.

When I'm sitting in my drivers seat, all three of these are my friends...

And with these two side by side I can verify that the fuel PSI rises 1 lb per 1 lb of boost....otherwise I'm pulling out quick....

 

[jawort0]

I replaced the PCV valve and the old vacuum lines. The car is idling much smoother. The adjustable fuel pressure regulator is set to 42 psi with the vacuum line off, which corresponds to 34psi with the line on. When I drive the car under boost the pressure will rise to 40 psi then fall near 34 psi again. The fuel pressure never gets near 50 psi under WOT. I will stop pushing the car until I can get the gauges.

I have emailed Kip who can hopefully help me.

Anyone have any other ideas at things I can look at to determine why fuel pressure is not rising properly with boost?

Thanks, Joe

 

[Slow91z]

Fuel pump, hotwire kit

 

[jawort0]

The previous owner installed a Walbro 340 fuel pump.

If a hot wire kit was needed, why would the car run fine then start acting up?

 

[GN owner]

It's possible that you have a clogged fuel filter which will cause these symptoms with the fuel pressure that you are experiencing.

 

[Slow91z]

The previous owner installed a Walbro 340 fuel pump.

Are you sure he installed a 340, or did he just tell you that.

Like the fella above said, fuel filter could be the problem, fuel sock in the tank could be clogged, and probably more I'm not thinking of.

 

[jawort0]

10 Points to GN Owner!!!!!!!!!


I replaced the fuel filter and the hestitation is gone!!! I now have two rust colered spots where the fuel poured out of the filter, so I might replace again shortly since it is my understanding this car has not been driven much lately.

Slow91z, yes I believe to previous owner installed a Walbro 340 as he said. Everything else with the car seems to have checked out. He is a fellow board member here and drove the car up from North Carolina to Indiana, so that tells me he had faith in the car as he was alone with no trail vehicle. The car has an LT1 MAF & Tran, Accufab that I can see and a second chip that came with the car. Why would he lie about the fuel pump? I can clearly see he replaced the injectors and fuel tank (shiney coating). The car had sat for 10 years, so he had to replace the tank and injectors. Can't tell how old the fuel filter is, but definately more than a couple years old I would say. It needed to be replaced, I just assumed he replaced recently with the tank. Maybe he did, but there was rust in the filter, so either way, that was the cause of the problem.

Thanks everybody for the help!!!!!! I will let you know if any other issues come up. I need to check to confirm the 53psi+ at WOT, but the miss is DEFINATELY gone.

Cheers! Joe

 

[Slow91z]

I can tell you from experience if you have that much rust in your tank you most likely need to replace it, it will kill filters, pumps, fuekl socks, and fuel injectors until you get rid of the rusty tank...I wouldn't drive the car anymore until I had the tank down for a look inside.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but this is something I have been through and as far as I know there is no fixing a rusty tank.

 

[jawort0]

The previous owner just replaced the tank. I can even tell from the outside. There is no rust whatsoever in the fill neck. Could the fuel lines themselves be the source of the rust? The other option could be the rust was present from the old rusty tank.

I agree it would be a good idea to drop to tank to see if somehow rust is coming from the tank, but since it is new, I am wondering how rust would be getting into the tank.

On a sad note, the car is still running fairly well, but I do not think it is quite to the point it was before. It seems like there is still a little hesitation at WOT, not quite so back at 80-90% Throttle. The vacuum lines and fuel filter definately made everything way better. I am sure a scanmaster and gauges are going to be needed to really fix the problem.

Is it normal for the car to not start so easily. Sometimes it can take several 3 or 4 second cranks to get the car started. Seems a little excessive.

Thanks for the feedback!

Joe

 

[seeyabye]

The gas tank was replaced a couple of years ago. It was a brand new unit. There was no tank in the car when I got it. I also installed a new Walbro 340, sock, new GM sending unit, and new filter at the same time. A couple of months later, one of the injectors started leaking, and I replaced all of them and put the accufab adjustable fuel pressure regulator on at the same time. The fuel system should be very solid as it is all new. I would probably take a fuel sample from the tank to see if you somehow got contaminated fuel. At my shop, we have had 3 cars this week towed in with contaminated fuel. It happens every time they go back to the ethanol.
I turned the car down to 13 psi because I knew you were new to the world of turbo Buicks and had no gauges or scanmaster and because I was unsure of the quality of the fuel you had access to. I would try to find a board member in your area that can put his hands on the car. It is a solid car, and I am sure that there is something simple going on with it. Feel free to call me anytime.

 

[Slow91z]

The previous owner just replaced the tank. I can even tell from the outside. There is no rust whatsoever in the fill neck. Could the fuel lines themselves be the source of the rust? The other option could be the rust was present from the old rusty tank.

I agree it would be a good idea to drop to tank to see if somehow rust is coming from the tank, but since it is new, I am wondering how rust would be getting into the tank.

On a sad note, the car is still running fairly well, but I do not think it is quite to the point it was before. It seems like there is still a little hesitation at WOT, not quite so back at 80-90% Throttle. The vacuum lines and fuel filter definately made everything way better. I am sure a scanmaster and gauges are going to be needed to really fix the problem.

Is it normal for the car to not start so easily. Sometimes it can take several 3 or 4 second cranks to get the car started. Seems a little excessive.

Thanks for the feedback!

Joe

Hopefully you'll be ok if the tank is new, maybe the rest of the rust just wasn't out of the system yet...I would feel much better if you checked though.

Hard to help you with WOT tuning with no info from some sort of scantool.

Long crank time is very normal with these cars. If you do a search it has been discussed many times over the years, but basically it just is that way. I think people have got around it before, but I think it took fairly extensive modifications.

 

["Turbo-T"]

Yes I believe the 3-4 cranks is common, as that's how mine does. There's actually a write up on it on Turbo1dr's homepage on whiy this is and the fix for it.

I don't think it's so much that the previous owner lied or not about the fuel pump but people do forget things. He might have remembered putting a Walbro 340 in another car and is mistaking it for this one.

When I got my car I was told it had a stock pump in it. So I proceeded to drop the tank and found it actually had a Holley version of the Walbro 340 in there. Yet there was no hotwire kit which it really needed. So it really goes to show you don't know what you got unless either you built it/replaced it/installed it or you actually got inside and found out yourself.

 

[Slow91z]

The gas tank was replaced a couple of years ago. It was a brand new unit.

Ok I retract my previous statement...If it's a couple of years old, and this problem just showed up now then I'm scared.

Drop the tank and see what you find, that new tank might not be all it was cranked up to be.

 

[jawort0]

Sharif,
Thanks for the additional information on the car. I agree it is a solid car and I am happy with the purchase. I had not thought about contaminated gas. I just filled up the car, and at a location that I only occasionally get fuel at and that is normally 87 octane for my 04 Silverado. (I put 93 in the car, but I wonder how much 93 octane this place sells.)

I REALLY appreciate you detuning the car since I do not have gauges or a scantool. It is good to learn the car and how to work on them before hopping them up to the point of blowing head gaskets etc.

I am going to try to burn through the 16 gallons currently in the tank and get fuel where I normally get fuel from and that I trust. I will let you know how things go.

Concerning the three cars with contaminated fuel. Is the fuel contaminated with debris or is it simply poor firing fuel? Based on the rust that came from the fuel filter, this could have definately been contaminated fuel with debris (maybe poor quality combustion wise as well).

Cheers, Joe