204/214 CAMS vs PUSHRODS

[6SENSE]

Okay guys, how many of you have had to get different length pushrods or adjustables for this cam?
As I was saying in my other thread ("Noisy Lifters") Ive got an issue with my lifters making just enough noise to at times set off the knock sensor while driving.
Cam is Speed Pro, Lifters are Sealed Power ht969's, and using stock rocker arm shafts.
Im looking at either taking a chance at swapping the lifters for some others that will hopefully be a little quieter (probably stock type from AZ) or swapping the pushrods.
Have you other 204/214 guys had to go through this? (If not, then why me? ) If anyone out there knows what length pushrod to go with for this cam grind, please let me know. Im sure Im not the first to go through this....right?

 

[Intercooler]

Sorry but no one can tell you the magical length. You have to measure! Not just measure but you have to experiment with what works. From watching Banning work with his car it showed that for him to get rid of the noise and make his car run right he had to set is somewhere between 0 and .010". Best way if you can't tolerate the noise (how bad are we talking?) is to buy adjustable rockers (roller) and try different preloads. No easy answer for it. You could also try different lifters but that is a crapshoot too. If it is running okay, no metal in the oil with not a bunch of noise then leave it alone!

 

[FastTurb]

I'm curious to what you used for headgaskets or the blocked decked, heads themselves...

 

[JDSfastGN]

Mine are not that loud with the same cam and lifters, but before my tranny went I was getting a lot of knock at random speeds, but I pretty sure it was chip programming. We'll see when I get the tranny back, I got a new chip burned. If it doesn't fix it, it might be the lifters, but I can barely hear them so I don't think they are the problem.

 

[6SENSE]

Intercooler, the noise is quite bearable as far as Im concerned. Its just my buddy Mr. Knock Sensor that is a bit irratable . Ive heard louder before with a car that had a much more defined tapping noise than mine. On that car we just swapped out ATR lifters for stock type from AZ and made a big difference. Wheres the best place to get these roller rockers? Will I be able to use them with the other existing valvetrain components and how do they work? Are these like having individual/adjustable rockers like on a SB Chevy?

FastTurb, I'll have to look back at paperwork, but Im pretty sure there wasnt any need to take anything off the block or heads. If the heads were resurfaced Im sure it wasnt much, but I dont think so. Ive got stock '87 GM headgaskets (remember this is an '84 block, see sig). Very good point though FastTurb, now that I think about it the '87 gaskets are thicker than the original '84s......hmmm.

JDSfastGN, keep me posted. Not very loud at idle, but false KR at different speeds describes what Ive been going through.

 

[REDS HOT AIR]

heck why are you running 87 gaskets on 84 block??

I ran mine (87 motor) with 87 gaskets and now it has single steel shim gaskets and still stock pushrods

any cam over stock will make more noise .. its doing more work and at faster pace

I the noise i get from the valvetrain is the timing chain slap from not having enough lobes to keep continuous load on chain

you'll have to pull intake to see if you have any preload or go thr then one at a time and turn motor till lifter is at base circle (valve closed) and see if the pushrod is sloppy


as far as changing the lifters most all of them on the market are made by the same company if its 969 part # its the same no matter the name

sealed power lifters are the best I have ever used in any motor ...the worst ones I have ever used were comp cams even if I get a customer that wants a comp cam for some dumb reason it gets sealed power lifters.

I'd bet you need to get more preload since you have head gaskets that are over .060 thicker than stock

If It were me I'd be pullin the heads and putting steel shims back on it. you'r running way to low of compression it has to be lazy as crap like that on 86-87 motors you can tell a difference in responsivness when dropping to single steel gasket and getting compression up

I run more boost on pump gas than most can so cant say it hurts it.

 

[6SENSE]

Thanks Reds. So what your saying is that with the '84 gaskets, the heads will be closer to the block letting the pushrods reach further which will consequently quiet things down.....and I'll get a little extra boost of performance to boot, right? (Hmmm, .30 over and thinner gaskets, compression will definately be higher than stock, huh?)
Out of all the messed up reasons to change head gaskets Oh well, what gaskets should I go with, stock GM (for '84)?

 

[REDS HOT AIR]

I just get gm gaskets for an 84-85 turbo buick at the dealer I get them around 8-10 bucks a piece but I'm sure thats wholesale price

I have 87 motor with steel shim so mine will still be higher than yours on compression.

its like .064 difference between the steel shim and 86-87 gasket thats alot to be picking the heads up

basically its around 1 point difference between the 2 so if they are true 8 to 1 then you've dropped to 7 to 1 where i went to 9 to 1

best part is no worry about blowing a head gasket with steel shim they will blow by but not blow out

search steel shim threads about installing mine are on dry now other than a lil rtv around the water passages

be sure to tighten the head bolts good and tight if you plan to turn boost way up at any point

 

[GS70350]

best part is no worry about blowing a head gasket with steel shim they will blow by but not blow out

Hmm, id have to argue that, because when i got my car it had steel shim gaskets on it, and i still have the one i took off that was blown out and melted like no gasket ive seen before. No. 6 cylinder. blew it out like, 2 inches accross into the lifter galley. the rest was all shaped funny and twisted up. guy before me turned the boost up way to high on the controller in the console, and then detonated he crap out of it aparently.

 

[turbotwister]

hey jacob,
how did that turbo work for ya?

nick,

 

[6SENSE]

Which would be of more benefit: changing gaskets and bumping compression up or leaving it where it is and being able to run higher boost? Am I thinking right here, or am I just more tired than I thought and need to just go to sleep?
Compression= more hp, or Boost=more hp

 

[REDS HOT AIR]

Originally posted by GS70350
Hmm, id have to argue that, because when i got my car it had steel shim gaskets on it, and i still have the one i took off that was blown out and melted like no gasket ive seen before. No. 6 cylinder. blew it out like, 2 inches accross into the lifter galley. the rest was all shaped funny and twisted up. guy before me turned the boost up way to high on the controller in the console, and then detonated he crap out of it aparently.

heck i've detonated the crap out of mine leaned it out into the low 600's burried the boost gauge 30# on pump gas ...name it i've done it and still kickin ..

I've heard the heads lift and pop out the sides of the motor but the gaskets stayed in place..

I'll try a lil harder but
I dont think they're gonna blow ..

you are hotair but I'd still go back to steel shims ... its not like your raising the compression you'd just be putting it back to stock.

the throttle responce would be worth it by itself not to mention the pushrod lenth fix and the fact that your intake ports are probly not lined up for crap with the heads that low


your call just givin my oppinionation

 

[6SENSE]

Thanks Reds, I'll weight it out, but sounds like you are most probably right.

 

[JDSfastGN]

I hope this is not my knock problem, I am getting my tranny finished in the nest few weeks. I got a new chip burnt and everything for my new combo (new parts were fully ported big valve heads, 204/214 and ht969 lifters, forged pistons) I am using felpro 9441 gaskets with ARP bolts. It is pretty quiet at idle but I can here the lifters a bit if I rev it to 3000, just a little. We'll see. Good luck 6sense

 

[ijames]

6SENSE, the lower the compression ratio the higher the boost you can run and the more power you will make. However, off boost the throttle response will be worse, gas mileage will be worse, and turbo spoolup will be slower, the lower the compression ratio. 8:1 is a pretty good compromise for a street car but some like 9:1. I don't think anyone "likes" 7:1 except on a dyno.

 

[GS70350]

Originally posted by REDS HOT AIR
heck i've detonated the crap out of mine leaned it out into the low 600's burried the boost gauge 30# on pump gas ...name it i've done it and still kickin ..

I've heard the heads lift and pop out the sides of the motor but the gaskets stayed in place..

I'll try a lil harder but
I dont think they're gonna blow ..

They may be more tolerant to detonation than the graphite fire ring gaskets on the 86-87 engines, but they can still blow, just as any gasket can. Just to let you know, the detonation my engine suffered was most likely, 100 times worse than the detonation you put yours through. Seriously, the head gasket wasnt the only thing to go. im glad it did though, or else i would have had more melted pistons. it melted pistons, and redeposited the melted part elsewhere on the crown of the piston. looked like one part burned off, another part was welded on. crazy. just glad it didnt hurt the bore, which is perfect standard bore with NO ridge.

Severe detonation, and i mean piston melting detonation, will blow the steel shims, i know this for a fact

 

[REDS HOT AIR]

cool I'll try that ...LOL

jus kiddin...If I dont find my leaning out problem I might though.

 

[6SENSE]

Originally posted by ijames
6SENSE, the lower the compression ratio the higher the boost you can run and the more power you will make. However, off boost the throttle response will be worse, gas mileage will be worse, and turbo spoolup will be slower, the lower the compression ratio. 8:1 is a pretty good compromise for a street car but some like 9:1. I don't think anyone "likes" 7:1 except on a dyno.

I think I may be able to vouch for the bad gas mileage . Without building up boost I guess Ive kind of gotten used to it, but the car does seem to move out kind of slow also. First half of 1st gear is a little sluggish, then it gets going and Im trying to keep the car straight when hitting 2nd .
My compression (last time I checked; prior to swapping out the bad cam) was 115-130. I think these are pretty decent #s. I guess they will go up a little higher if a change the gaskets?
Thanks.

 

[6SENSE]

Okay guys, heres the deal, after some pondering. Honestly, getting rid of this bit of noise causing false knock is #1 on the agenda, not worried as much about the possible lower compression deal. I emphasize that the noise is not that bad, just bad enough at times to set off the knock sensor. So, with that said, I want to try retourquing the heads. I initially only torqued them to 60 ft/lbs which is stock for '87, while 80 ft/lbs is stock for '84. Im proposing torquing to 75 or 80. Im thinking this just might do the trick. Valvetrain noise that already is much less than Ive heard on other blocks hopefully well be nullified because pushrods will now reach a bit further, and as a by product compression should go up a bit to boot. Yes, I did use .060 thicker gaskets, but remember the block is also .030 over bore, and if I tighten the heads down a little more I dont see why the compression would be that much lower than stock.
By the way, bolts are ARP. Please let me know what you guys think, I plan on trying it this weekend. Dont see how it would hurt. Thanks