9/11 convertor

[SloGN]

hey guys


Got some interesting info today.


I recently purchased a used 9/11 converter from a frind of mine that came out of his t-type. his motor failed in a few hundred miles after a $$$$$ high dollar rebuild. So he decided to sell the car as a rolling chassis and stuff. I bought the convertor from him the date stamped on the converter was 6-11-03. My trans was slipping shifting to second gear so i decided to freshen it up. so i put all new clutches(raybestos) along with a wider band shimmed the accummulator and installed a 521 boost valve. Then i installed the 9-11 converter the trans has been shifting great . I put about 600 miles on it since the rebuild. I got it out and drove it about 5-6 miles to a friend's house and the trans starting making a growling sound so i tried to limp the car home but it still broke down anyhow i took the trans out and found that the front pump has broke into several pieces and it has messed up the hub on the converter.


I found a local converter builder here in NC
converter design specialist (greg slack)
24664 scenic veiw dr
albermarle, NC


I took the convertor to him this afternoon and told him what happen to the transmission and converter . so he got to measuring the runout on the converter and we have found the the hub on the converter was .030 off center and also the front and back halfs were .015 off.


so if any of you guys have recently had front pump break for no reason at all have the converter checked first before intalling back in.

 

[2quiktocare]

Anytime you rebuild a trans and add increasing line pressure you run the risk of increasing pump rotor failure on the normal powdered metal rotor. The damage of the pump hub would be the result of the pump failure itself rather than the opposite. If you had an issue with something on the converter, it would have occured way before now.
The fact it worked in your friends car without failure is a good indicator since his pump did not fail.
It is a good thing to always have a used converter checked prior to installing in a new transmission for contamination along with any physical problems due to the fact, you have no idea if the converter was dropped or improperly stored.
Hope this addressed some of your questions, but from my history, I have seen most all of these things are due to pump failure than anything else.

 

[SloGN]

9-11

The convertor had only about 150-200 miles on it when i bought it from Mike W after his motor blew up. The fact is that the convertor run for about 600 miles before it killed the front pump.

BTW how does someone check a convertor to see if the hub is out spec or warped without the proper tools like someone who build them for a living?

The convertor only has maybe a total of 800 miles on it . What can explain the reason for the hub to be .030 out of spec, ????


I called and talked to RUSTY today and i was told the reason for the hub to be .030 out of spec was cause the front pump locked up and twisted the hub drive out.

I find this hard to believe because the POWDER METAL should have broke before it twisted the hub .030 out of spec.

Also the front half of the converter where it meets the back half of the converter was out .015 thats a total of .045 out i don't think the front pump locking up causes the convertor to twisted or warp like that.

also if that was the case wouldn't i see where the paint was flaking of where the twisting/warping of the converter ?

IMO.... i think someone just slaped it together.

when that converter is shipped in from TCS to Extreme Trans it should be inspected again to insure there is a quality product going out the door to the customer.


so far i'm not happy with the product or the customer service that i got.

the only thing i got out of it was to have the trans rebuilt and have the convertor repaired.

 

[2quiktocare]

First, the rotor breaking and its binding is more than enough to warp the hub. It was enough to damage it, so why is it hard to believe it would cause a bind that does deflect the hub. We see this and much worse in our business.
The history of this converter is not known. You bought it second hand and also past the warranty period.
TCS does not just slap anything together. Paint cracking from the stress? You had 0.015" deflection on the housing that is less than 1/64th of an inch. Just why would that cause paint stress marks? Besides, that is less tha 0.0075" per side and is way within any reasonable tolerence as it is.
As far as the product goes, you bought a used converter. Customer service would rest with the person you bought it from, not us or TCS. The problem you have was caused by your trans pump rotor going out which does happen from time to time. You increased line pressure and that probably helped the failure occur.

Why would you expect any company to be responsible for anything that they did not sell you and the failure of another part caused damage to?

This whole thing baffles me as to why you would feel you received bad customer service or a bad product. Maybe you should ask your trans builder why his pump work failed you. That would be the more logical path to take here.

 

[SloGN]

9/11

First of all when i called and talked to Rusty @ TCS i didn't expect for them to warranty the convertor. I was just letting him know the results of what i have found to maybe prevent another person from having them same troubles.

Then he gave me the spill about the front pump breaking twisting the hub out .030

Well it must have to have twisted the weld .030 out too..... because from the weld out to the end of the hub drive was out .030. I can understand it twisting the tangs out when the pump broke. but not all the way down to the weld on the front cover

all my intentions were to let them know of the problem and they acted like they could have not done no wrong at all.

that what i was talking about when i said bad customer service.

anyhow thanks for listening even tho i'm still wrong in your eyes.

BTW my trans guy has been rebuilding tranmissions for over 15 yrs and has never had a problem like this to occur.

 

[chris718]

rusty is not a business man and is not willing to stand behind his products.a professional operation should perform the welding of the converters. with dead accuracy.he will never get another dollar from us.that was a defect period.we run 235 psi and never break rotors.rusty your products are great but if you dont weld the hub straight those awesome converters become junk.thanks to your screwups we now make our own.weve used many of his converters with great sucess but got a rash of converters with the wrong assembled height and hub runout.unfortunate for anyone who had this problem.help him out by not buying his stuff

 

[2quiktocare]

I was unaware that Rusty had a problem with his units. We have not had a single issue with his products as far as quality goes. Chris, I applaude you for starting your own converter building, but to trash someone's work without knowing the details of the whole story is not the best thing you could be doing, either business or ethics wise. This converter is second hand and came out of a car that grenaded an engine. You and I both know if the converter had prior issues it would have taken out the pump way before this.
As far as pump rotors blowing, we have seen many units coming in from recent builds elsewhere that have done the very same thing. We know they can live at higher pressures. We have ours running at 280 to 310 line pressure. We went to billet pump rotors to make sure that nothing we sent to Norway, England, Canada, Hawaii, or Alaska would have an issue with them.
To make any comments concerning Rusty's work on this particular unit is not valid.
Rusty must be doing something right as he makes many of the internals in many of the big converter builders, not to mention numerous other critical racing parts for the industry.

SloGN, your questions to us were answered and politely so, but not to your liking considering you have chose to air this out for public sympathy.

 

[chris718]

im basing it on my personal recent expeiences with him.i have found him dishonest,rude,and non caring in regards to customers needs.i will publicly say that the last ten converters we purchased from him were over 1/2 inch short on the height as well as 3 with runout issues beyond .008".this is unacceptable,we spent over 50 grand with him.and if anyone finds me unethical let the world know,ive got nothing to hide.when issues arise we take care of them ,he doesnt.there were the restall iissues,the poorly packaged converters etc.ive had enough .rusty your a loser in my book.its a shame because you do build a good converter,we never broke one of his 9/11s.

 

[SloGN]

9/11

Originally posted by 2quiktocare


SloGN, your questions to us were answered and politely so, but not to your liking considering you have chose to air this out for public sympathy.

yes when i called to extreeme trans and spoke to someone about it they were polite and told me to call rusty @ TCS.

But when i talked to rusty @ TCS that was a total diffrent story all together in which i have explained up above.

BTW..... my post was put on here to let people know of a problem i had with my converter so if maybe they have had the same problem it would give them a place to look and see if that was what caused the damage. nothing more nothing less.

 

[CARTMAN]

Kudos to CK, great to see a vendor putting the customer first and correcting a problem instead of denying it exists. its always alot easier to look the other way to protect your business interests than to take it upon yourself to change things for the better

 

[REDS HOT AIR]

Originally posted by chris718
,we never broke one of his 9/11s.

so far 2 dead ones here
possibly a 3rd one now and the one I had reuild by tcs after it failed in my car .. well the car its in now just exploded a pump (if converter fault that makes 4) and the tranny guy that built that tranny has never seen a 200 destruct like that ...I think I'll call them tomarrow and have them check the converter for runout

could help explain the cracked flexplates and wiped trust bearings also


twisted hubs huh the hub should crack before it would twist

does tcs make B&m converters ??

 

[chris718]

im not perfect but i do accept responsibility for what i am responsible for .this is impoprtant in business,anyone who says zero comebacks isnt truthfull.

 

[FastRegalWE2]

Originally posted by chris718
im not perfect but i do accept responsibility for what i am responsible for .this is impoprtant in business,anyone who says zero comebacks isnt truthfull.

Chris is a stand up guy, gave me a warranty on a USED tranny and when it broke, he paid to ship it back to him and fix it. Could you ask for anything more?
I would def do business with Chris again without a 2nd though and would be inclined to trust his opinion adn judgement since dealing with him so far has been a very professional experience.

 

[WE4]

If a shop EVER....

Tells you they have NO comebacks , one of two things just happened....................................

1) The guy just became God

or

2) You were just lied to, simple as that!

If it is mechanical, it can fail........


Bruce
WE4

 

[WE4]

As far as this comment...

Originally posted by CARTMAN
Kudos to CK, great to see a vendor putting the customer first and correcting a problem instead of denying it exists. its always alot easier to look the other way to protect your business interests than to take it upon yourself to change things for the better

We have not had the issues spoken here. I have only to see 2% of our converters fail.( Over 20 years that is a pretty damn good track record.) As for the shortness and off center mentioned earlier in the post, we have NOT experianced that. Now, is Chris wrong? I haven't a clue and I doubt it, but like Mark said and I will say, we have had great luck and with the chrome moly pump rotors and slides we use, and to date, we have not had ONE failure. That I can say. Not ONE pump failure with the billet rotors and slides.

Chris can tell you this. GM will tell you this also. They (GM) believe that the pump hub on the converter fails due to harmonics.Once that occurs, rotor and catostrophic pump failure is not far behind. Usually a leak will devolop first. I am not sold on this theory, but that is what they will tell you. Ask a GM high up tech. They see the failures and they do not even have an aftermarket converter. They went to the 13 vane to help cure the pulses, but found it left the rotor thin right near a drive tab and they were cracking.
So just because one person or entity has an issue doesn't make the product line a piece of crap. Yes, Red does win the award for being one of the "few" that have broken ours. But let me ask you this.......
How many 9X11's do you here of failing vs other brands of converters for our cars. I bet the answer surprises you.

for all around drivability, you cannot beat them.
The most common mistake by most is to over stall them. Very few out there demand more than a 3200. These 3800 ones you hear of being loose, are, thats why it is so critical to have it built to your car, not just a spec one on the shelf.
One of the most important parts of any combonation is the converter. You can have two of the exact same motors built the exact same way and one will react different than the other.Look at Hendrick motorsports for example. They build over 800 engines a year. Anyone of there stars has 5-6 bullets in the trailer at any given moment and can fly another in at will. BUT there is always one in the bunch that is stronger or more powerful if even by just 1-3 hp. There is always a weaker one. Point is, just because the same combo is used, doesn't mean the same converter set up is going to act the same. Especially in these cars where we are constantly frigging with the fuel, spark and anything else we can find to screw with. Natraully asperated cars were at least a little eaiser. A carburator was a carburator and not as many variables. Driver input is critical here also. How do you drive it? Track/street? Cruise or just beat up? Cooling is a HUGE issue here. Any converter unlocked at 3500 stall or better is going to produce heat. PERIOD!. And more than you would think.
Well enough, I could go on but who is really listening?
Who am I to inform or educate?





Bruce
WE4

 

[REDS HOT AIR]

Re: As far as this comment...

Originally posted by WE4
Yes, Red does win the award for being one of the "few" that have broken ours.

Bruce
WE4

And Bruce never tried to side step the issue ..soon as I discused the problem with him he took care of it

I sure wish I could say that about another vendor I had broken products with (not tranny related )

I cant say a bad word about either Bruce or Chris ... both great guys in my book


I gotta ask why is its called 9-11 when its actually 10-12


I have a 9.5 x 11 (only one built) in the shop now about to go in a car for testing

 

[WE4]

Re: Re: As far as this comment...

Originally posted by REDS HOT AIR


I gotta ask why is its called 9-11 when its actually 10-12

Red: You just like to think you have 10-12.....LOL

Bruce
We4

 

[2quiktocare]

Back to reality, the 9X11 means a 9" turbine with an 11" lock up disc. Hope that explains it better Red.

 

[1of1035]

I actually had my tranny go out on me today as well. I just had a complete rebuild about 3 months ago. Everything was replaced with hardened or billet pieces. Front pump, input, foward drum and so on. My tranny started making noise yesterday and today I was leaving work for a lunch break and had no reverse or foward gears. I talked to my builder and he said it might be a converter problem. I also have a billet 9x11. I'm wondering if this could be part of the bad batch of converters. I haven't even beat on the tranny besides a few burnouts when I first got it back. Tranny should be apart in a day or two. I'll post back with the results.

 

[REDS HOT AIR]

Re: Re: Re: As far as this comment...

Originally posted by WE4
Red: You just like to think you have 10-12.....LOL

Bruce
We4

oh heck no glad I dont

Originally posted by 2quiktocare
Back to reality, the 9X11 means a 9" turbine with an 11" lock up disc. Hope that explains it better Red.

ok that makes sence=since=centz=0.02