Alky system idea...

[VadersV6]

I feel like making someone else rich today by throwing out an idea I had a few weeks ago. Someone may have already tried it, but I havent heard or read anything. When you need to pump more alky, most go with more nozzles and a bigger pump, etc. There is an inherent loss of alky line pressure from the boost that the alky pump has to overcome...if the pump is pushing 60psi, and you're running 20psi boost, you'll only be getting 40psi at the nozzle. Thats alot of wasted potential.
Why not run an additional hose off of a boost source to the alky tank, plugged right into the lid? Instead of having a little hole as a vent in the lid, you would actually have pressure pumping into the tank, which would completely overcome the pressure loss. You could throw on a check valve or a boost activated solenoid of course, to prevent vacuum siphoning and an IC filled with alky from cruising. I would run the hose to a boost source, before the alky nozzle, to prevent alky vapors from recirculating. Maybe even tap it in somewhere before the intercooler, in order to actually gain a pressure advantage. There is the possibility of pumping superheated air into the tank, but not if the IC is doing its job. besides, SMC originally designed their system with the alky tank sitting right next to the turbo. Talk about HOT! I dont think the air from this line would be so hot that it would cause issues. I expect to hear alot of "yeah that would never work", and then see a newly designed alky system on all the vendors websites, lol.
What do you guys think?

 

[Lee Thompson]

Already tried that

Almost a good idea.
Why not just pressurize the main fuel tank also.

 

[VadersV6]

Because you dont want the gas tank to be pressurized and turn the gas tank into a bomb when you get in an accident. You could probably make an alky system that uses a return style setup like the FI fuel system with a pressure regulator to feed unused fuel back to the tank, thereby controlling fuel flow, which would make an excellent progressive alky system with seamless transition from low spray to high spray. If it werent for the pressure regulator, we would have way more fuel being supplied than we need anyway. The FI pumps we use deliver more than enough fuel to overcome pressure loss from boost. What we do with the gas tank doesnt have much to do with the alky setup. If you can dramatically increase the amount of alky being sprayed without adding pumps and nozzles, why not? It seems like a sound idea. All it would take is some fittings, some hose, and maybe a solenoid. Also maybe a couple hose clamps to keep the tank from swelling and the solenoid would be set up to vent all pressure when you lift and then close the whole system off to boost and vacuum while cruising. The whole point of the vent in the cap is to give you a pressure differential that allows the tank to drain...just like popping a vent on the old school cans of oil. But this would take that idea and improve on it. Pressurize the tank under boost, and you have NO pressure drop in the feed line/nozzle, and a huge assist in fuel delivery.
So what part of the setup didnt work when you tried it? Did you address the little issues that may come up, that I described? You didnt run the pressure hose right into the alcohol did you? You used a solenoid or valve to control the pressure from boost to vacuum?

 

[jhanson1750]

The only problem I see is the volume of the pressureized tank. Pressure doesnt scare me volume does! If you are looking at a complete pressure tank with air over alky and the tank is built for it GREAT idea. But you have to be aware of what pressure is capable of, then also look at what happens if you get a leak in the tank under boost. Most of the folks I have sen that run alky run some substancial boost (psi) and a leak under 24-26psi is going to be an immediate fire hazard. I am not trying to shoot the idea down, It is a sound way to increase alky to the nozzle. I just worry about the tank under pressure. just my .02

 

[VadersV6]

The only problem I see is the volume of the pressureized tank. Pressure doesnt scare me volume does! If you are looking at a complete pressure tank with air over alky and the tank is built for it GREAT idea. But you have to be aware of what pressure is capable of, then also look at what happens if you get a leak in the tank under boost. Most of the folks I have sen that run alky run some substancial boost (psi) and a leak under 24-26psi is going to be an immediate fire hazard. I am not trying to shoot the idea down, It is a sound way to increase alky to the nozzle. I just worry about the tank under pressure. just my .02

Yeah when it comes to people wanting to substantially increase the potential of their alky system, this should work pretty well. Plus, even if you went with extra nozzles and lines, this would bring up the potential of that. The sealing is the main concern of mine, as you mentioned. It would require a tank that is designed for this. Something that can really seal well, and a fail proof means of venting the pressure the second you let off the throttle. A good NOS solenoid should work great. I think whats his name from buickgn.com used one of these solenoids to keep the vacuum from siphoning alky into the IC during high vacuum (cruising). Something like that would serve this purpose really well for controlling vacuum and pressure. Vortec superchargers uses the aftercooler (air to water) instead of an air to air IC, and they use a pressurized tank that circulates engine coolant through the heat exchanger. A tank like that would be great for the alky. Then if I wanted to design a truly progressive alky system, a return style system, just like what is used on FI cars, would work beuatifully, and no need for any complex electronics. Just a fuel pressure regulator hooked to a boost/vacuum source and the proper line routing. The boost would naturally dictate the alky line pressure. Then add the pressurized tank to bring things up to the next level.

 

[Red Regal T]

The Sureflo pump can be adjusted up to 150 psi. Razor's kit pumps more pressure automatically, the more boost you make. So, I don't see how much boost can be a factor unless you have a pump that only pumps 30 psi.

 

[VadersV6]

The Sureflo pump can be adjusted up to 150 psi. Razor's kit pumps more pressure automatically, the more boost you make. So, I don't see how much boost can be a factor unless you have a pump that only pumps 30 psi.

Yeah the entire new alky system design is somewhat of a pie in the sky thing. While I have all the resources in my hands to make just about anything, its a matter of finding personal time at work to do it. Little bit of a conflict of interest between me and my boss. From what I understood about razors progressive setup, is that the pressure comes up in stages, not a seamless curve. I could be totally wrong. Snow makes a system that uses the MAF signal to create a seamless curve in pressure. Seems like a return style setup could do this without any fancy electronic gizmos, and the pressurizing of the tank could be used to improve ANY system without driving the pump into oblivion. A pump failing during a 9 second pass wouldnt be pretty. Whether or not the market needs anything like this, I dont know. It just seems like the way all the systems should be designed. The faster you drain the tank, the quicker it would have to vent. Pressurizing would eliminate this issue...no idea if anyone has ever had this issue anyway. Its just an idea.

 

[jhanson1750]

Vader, The thing I like is the "out of the box" thinking that this idea illustrates. Like you stated ,is this needed, I can't say. I just think it would viable option should someone with the time (not me) and resourses (me maybe ) decide to spend some time and iron out the details. I just installed a SNOW performance stage 2 kit and I am extreamly pleased with it. I saw the MAF refrence kit but opted for the boost refrence for myself, I like the KISS way of thinking. I know guys running way fast with DIY kits and no progressive control and I don't know if the complexity of what we are talking about would be worth the time. BUT what about a twin turbo kit that was truly sequintial ie discharge out of first compressor into inlet of second???

 

[Red Regal T]

A pump failing during a 9 second pass wouldnt be pretty. Whether or not the market needs anything like this, I dont know. It just seems like the way all the systems should be designed. The faster you drain the tank, the quicker it would have to vent. Pressurizing would eliminate this issue...no idea if anyone has ever had this issue anyway. Its just an idea.

I just run a DIY kit. Never had a problem in 7 years. I'll really get serious when I'm running "9s".

 

[salvageV6]

I prefer to let the knock sensor tell me when I need another pump or nozzle or more alky.

And since the nozzle is at a right angle, 90 degrees, to the intake pipe airflow it doesn't push back exactly at the full boost psi.

Need one of dem dere liquid/air engineers to figure out the exact forces at work.

Not that it's ever been a problem for most folks.

 

[Razor]

From what I understood about razors progressive setup, is that the pressure comes up in stages, not a seamless curve. I could be totally wrong.

Yes your wrong

Pressure will always come up in a linear fashion. The "Ramp" is adjustable and smooth.. not stepped.

Becuase it is progressive it means the pressure will rise as the boost rises. This is a curve. Whether the curve is steep or flat is then adjustable by setting controls. Real easy. The issue with the Snow product is you have a Set and Max. You cannot vary your curve. This is where the ball was missed.

Lastly, the pump I sell is tested to 250 PSI on water before being shipped. It will make 200 PSI on methanol with an M15 nozzle.. yeah its overkill.

I wouldnt pressurize a tank. Thats an extremely dangerous predicament you can fall into.

Hope the info helps. Never assumme.. it will end up costing you $$$

 

[Lee Thompson]

Razor

You the man. Someone always trying to complicate a simple process, or reinvent the wheel.
Reminds me of some of the engineers I used to work with.

 

[Razor]

I love new idea's and concepts.. that is how new products are developed.

The testing is really the fun part where you put your ideas to work.. then see if your going in a forward direction. Cant say how many times what looks good on paper turns bad in reality.

That is why I look to Lee for engine building tips.. cuase he's been there and done that many times over what i'll ever do.. not that I dont mind being a renegade of sorts.. how crazy is it to drive a car to a track.. race it at 27+ PSI on 93 octane.. and run mid 10's... then drive it home on the same tires This past Sat nite.. 10.64 on radials.

Keep up the inventive processes.. just be careful. :wink:

 

[Pronto]

Isn't there a kit out there that uses a pressurized tank spray the alky? I think it was on a site that had parts for Mustangs?

 

[salvageV6]

I believe Joe Tripodi had a pressurized kit in the early days, never heard anything bad about it.

Then again to some "new" ideas have already been done by others.

 

[Pablo]

I think that is an interesting idea.

Ultimately the goal would be more alcohol into the system if you were alcohol limited. For people stuck with 91 octane running high boost, you pretty much have to max out your alky kit (razors out of the box kit) here to stave off knock. I know this from experience.

Pressurizing the tank is merely one way of increasing the flow. Since without a pressurized tank, as boost comes up you are losing whatever psi in boost you are making from whatever psi the pump would generate in open air and thus the subsequent loss in volume. This is the principle at work behind how our FPRs work and how an FMU in an afermarket supercharger setup allows people to get by with them on cars without ecm tuning. You could accomplish the same thing by pressurizing the fuel tank but since air is compressable, it wouldnt work in a car very well what with the varying levels of fuel in the tank, and the insane amount of time it would take for the pressure in the tank to match the pressure in your plenum assuming you use tubing small enough to not make your tank an extra plenum.

As is allready done, you can increase the volume with extra nozzles. For the amount of work involved in adding a fuel tank for the alky that could tolerate pressurization, check valve, and plumbing, it would seem to be alot easier to add an extra nozzle. Especially considering the marginal gains you would get from pressurizing the tank.

Lets say the pump at full voltage will generate 150 psi in free air with an M15 nozzle on the end. (I dont know exactly what it would do but I'm guessing its around there and if so should illustrate my point well enough)

the M15 flows 15 GPH at 100 psi, so at 150 psi the M15 flows 18.37 gph

now lets pretend we dont have a pressurized tank, and the nozzle is sitting in above atmospheric pressure, boost, we'll say 30 psi

we subtract 30 psi from 150 psi since the pump now has to overcome 30 psi of boost pressure before it can start to flow.

So 120 psi on an M15 nozzle flows 16.4 GPH

If you went through all the work to pressurize your tank you would see a measily 12% increase in alcohol flow presuming at full tilt the pump only generated 150 psi in free air with an M15 restriction at the end (I suspect it is more and if it is the % increase would drop further)

Assuming the pump can still deliver sufficient volume to hit its 150 psi pressure mark in free air (the hypothetical psi I proposed), adding an extra M15 nozzle would increase the flow by 100%

So it really wouldnt even be close.

Im sure at some point the pump would not be able to deliver the volume at that given pressure and perhaps the increase in flow would not be 100% because you start to run out of pump... Even so, thats a ton of alcohol, even if its a 50% gain only because of diminishing returns.

 

[VadersV6]

Nice writeup Pablo. It is a pretty small percentage when comparing pressure above ambient (boost) to 150psi pump pressure. But my kit sure as hell doesnt run 150psi. More like 60.
20 pounds of boost, pressurizing the tank, where a pump is normally running 60psi...thats a pretty big increase in pressure, just by recovering a parasitic loss.
Thanks for understanding, Julio.
Lee- If it werent for someone always trying to re-invent the wheel, you wouldnt be able to enjoy things like turbochargers and just about every modern day convenience you take for granted. If the wheel had never been re-invented, no one would have flown men to the moon. I come up with probably 30 ideas before even bringing one up to anyone.
Among other things, I invented the modern ultrasonic wire embedding horn design, which is the industry standard now across the world, in the smart card manufacturing industry. The max speed that cards could be made before was about 300 cards per hour. I "re-invented the wheel", and we now have machines making cards at over 2000 per hour because of the speed with which magnet wire can be implanted into the smart card substrate. Too bad the invention was stolen by my old boss and then patented under the company name. Piece of **** mother****er There were about 5 or 6 witnesses who know I came up with this, so if it went to court, I could get my name on the patent. The way industry works though, an awesome invention never guarantees you a dime.
Anyway, you win some, you lose most. But at least we try.

 

[Pronto]

How about running 2 pumps, each feeding one nozzle that is the next size up? Would that be enough alky for your needs?

 

[Pablo]

Nice writeup Pablo. It is a pretty small percentage when comparing pressure above ambient (boost) to 150psi pump pressure. But my kit sure as hell doesnt run 150psi. More like 60.
20 pounds of boost, pressurizing the tank, where a pump is normally running 60psi...thats a pretty big increase in pressure, just by recovering a parasitic loss.
Thanks for understanding, Julio.
Lee- If it werent for someone always trying to re-invent the wheel, you wouldnt be able to enjoy things like turbochargers and just about every modern day convenience you take for granted. If the wheel had never been re-invented, no one would have flown men to the moon. I come up with probably 30 ideas before even bringing one up to anyone.
Among other things, I invented the modern ultrasonic wire embedding horn design, which is the industry standard now across the world, in the smart card manufacturing industry. The max speed that cards could be made before was about 300 cards per hour. I "re-invented the wheel", and we now have machines making cards at over 2000 per hour because of the speed with which magnet wire can be implanted into the smart card substrate. Too bad the invention was stolen by my old boss and then patented under the company name. Piece of **** mother****er There were about 5 or 6 witnesses who know I came up with this, so if it went to court, I could get my name on the patent. The way industry works though, an awesome invention never guarantees you a dime.
Anyway, you win some, you lose most. But at least we try.

Yeah, at 60 psi, the gains would be greater no doubt. It shouldnt be too hard to pressurize the tank you would just need to make an airtight cap of some sort with a port for a hose and a check valve. I would think that plastic tank could handle 20-30 psi but its obviously not designed for it and if it cracked that would be ugly. Obviously there is more than one way to skin a cat, I think upgrading your pump or system would probably be easier at this point but I'm all for new ideas.

As a side note, you know that old school water/alcohol injection systems basically worked this way. They had no electronics, they would just use boost pressure to push fluid out of the tank and through a nozzle that was pre turbo or pre supercharger. So whatever boost you ran was the pressure that came out of the nozzle.

As for your comment about re-inventing the wheel, Im 100% with you in that sentiment. I wish people would question how we do things more often rather than just accepting them blindly. Like you said, you win some, you lose most, but thats how progress goes. Most people dont realize that some of our greatest inventions are the result of 1000s of failed ideas that just needed to be tried. I know questioning things gets on peoples nerves though for some reason.