Are you interested???

[turbov6joe]

We TTA owners know how bad the situation is as far as getting cool air into our motors. The cramped engine compartment does not lend itself much area to fabricate many choices of a fresh air intake. With that in mind, I am hopefully going to enlist the help of Ed Brewer of DC Tech to design a 100% functional fresh air (FAI) intake of some sorts. I approached Ed this past weekend about helping me design this FAI and he seemed to think that not many TTA owners would be interested in this system, thus not enough of a market to go through the trouble of designing this kit. This is where I'm using this thread to gauge the interest of you all. How many of you TTA owners would be interested in buying a FAI if he and I were to make one? If you go to dctech.com and take a look at the kit they sell for the TR's, you'll get a good idea of what direction I/we might be heading. The kit Ed designed for the TR's is 100% bad azz and IMO is about as good as it gets. This winter I'd like to get started on something and maybe have something available for sale in the spring; just in time for the 2004 race season and BG. Please post your responses here and I will have Ed watch this thread as well. With any luck, and some interested parties, we can get some kind of a FAI for our beloved TTA's!

 

[turbotaone]

I would be interested, depending on the price .

James

 

[turbov6joe]

The price is by far from being determined at this point, but will be kept to a bare minimum I can assure you. With a wife, 2 kids, and a FIXED budget that doesn't include my TTA no thanks to my wife, cost is of the utmost concern. Thanks for the interest, I hope this thing comes to fruition.

 

[postal]

Razor had one made up and he said it slowed him down. I'm interested in making a run with mine off to see if it helps or hurts. Mine is basically a 3.5" MAF pipe that goes all the way over to where the charcoal canister used to be. It has a 90 deg mandrel bend there that points straight to the ground. I cut a hole out in the area by where the char canister used to be. Below the area where I cut the hole is a big box like deal that my air filer is enclosed in. This box is fed with air from a scoop that about 3" x 12" that catches air right at the nose of the car. My idea behind the scoop was to use it to build pressure in the box and to try to force the air through the filter. I was hoping that this would make the air go through the filter and the maf pipe to the turbo. That way the turbo wouldn’t have to try to "suck" the air through the filter and the long pipe. That’s what I was shooting for but I have no idea if it’s really working or not. I also imagine that you wouldn’t be able to get anybody to buy a kit that was made like mine because most people wouldn’t want to cut the hole.

Ever hear of staging turbos? Where the outlet of one turbo pumps into the inlet of the other? Turbos are pressure multipliers. Basically the air around us is at almost 15#'s and when a boost gauge reads 15#'s its actually 30#'s. Because a boost gauge reads how much pressure over atmospheric there is. Anyway if you have the full 15#'s tam press at the inlet of the turbo and the 15#'s of boost you pressure ratio is 2 to 1. Now if you have only 14#'s at the turbo inlet and 15#'s of boost the pressure ratio is 2.14 to 1. This means the turbo has to work harder to make the same amount of boost. This will cause more backpressure on the motor, higher turbo outlet temps, and the turbo has to spin faster for the same amount of boost (lag). This will also lower the amount of air the turbo can put out, basically it will make your turbo smaller. Now if you do the opposite and raise the pressure to the inlet of the turbo to lets say 16#'s. Now to make 15#'s of boost the turbo will be at a pressure ratio of 1.85. This will mean lower backpressure, lower outlet temps, and the turbo spins slower (less lag). This will also raise the amount of air the turbo can pump, basically making it bigger with no side effects.

That all said I can easily see two things. 1. I can see why people say a CAI kit slowed them down. Their particular kit probably caused enough restriction (which wouldn’t take much at all) to over come any gain from the cooler air. 2. I can see why some people say a CAI kit really helped their car. The particular CAI kit must be addressing all the correct issues.

Still don’t know if mine works but I can run in the 12's at only 10 psi on a stock long block so some thing has to be breathing good.

HTH: Jason

 

[postal]

Ever hear of staging turbos? Where the outlet of one turbo pumps into the inlet of the other?

I didnt really say much on that. Staging turbos is a thing used in tractor pulling and who knows where else. I'll give you a crude idea. Basically lets say a 1000hp pulling tractor is running a three stage turbo set up with each turbo feeding the next. Basically in series not parallel. You would have a big turbo feeding into a medium sized turbo and then the medium turbo feeding into a small turbo. Now all three of these turbos have the same amount of air going through them. The difference is that the air going into the last two turbos is already compressed and therefore more dense. Intercooling between the stages can bump this up even more. Since the air is more dense going into these two they can and pretty much have to be smaller to be sized properly. One of the strange things with this is that the little turbo whinds up being a properly sized turbo for a 1000hp motor! It is possible to show that a stock turbo could be too big on a 1000hp motor and that a TE70 could be too small on a 600hp motor. This would all have to do with the density of the air at the inlet of the turbos.

I read to much!

Jason

 

[turbov6joe]

I can totally see how a "boxed" "ram air" effect CAI would have slowed you down. Back in 1990 when I bought my GN, I installed one of these "boxed" "ram air" style systems without knowing any better. For the next week after the install I could not figure out why my car felt slower. Well, as I'm sure you can figure out, it was the canister around the filter that was restricting the airflow. Once I removed the box the car started running like it used to. The stock turbo flows enough air that a box around a filter kills power, not to mention the larger turbos. After many years of playing with various CAI sytems that I made at home, I have come to the conclusion that the shorter the piping and more open the air filter, the better off.

The system I want to make sounds much like the one you made; however, mine will be a 3" hard MAF pipe from the turbo to the MAF itself, a HD flexible hose (smooth inside) from the MAF down through the same modified hole you mentioned, then to a DC Tech power cone mounted from under the car inside the wheel well and stopping abruptly at the base of where the evap cannister used to be. This way the only serious radius will be from the MAF out through the hole to the power cone. The beauty of the power cone is that you cut the sharp 90º base off of the K&N and bolt/seal the power cone to the filter thus eliminating any sharp edges inside the filter for air to go turbulant. The power cone then makes a gradual/sweeping 90º to the flex hose and up to the MAF with minimal turbulance to the MAF/turbo. This is not splitting atoms by any means, just a simple yet effective means to get cooler ambient air to the turbo. I know with car my AIT sensor often reads well over 100º cruising down the highway on a nice 75º day....not good for performance! Not to mention sitting still in the staging lanes waiting to make a pass.
The way I see it, if it works for me and not 1 single person wants to buy one for cost +...no sweat off my junk; just trying to help out a bit with our ever aging cars....cheers!

 

[Captain Mark]

If it works, I'm in!

 

[Lee_Burough]

Interested....But, my speed goals are comparativlely modest

I met someone from DC Tech at a cruise night in KC about 17 months ago, while I was there to pick up my TTA from dhauser. Awesome "Long Neck" set up on that grey TR

However, I am not willing to eliminate/reposition the fuel cannister or anything else I need for emissions....That said, I've been toying with the idea of making an air box of some kind to eliminate the stock air box and utilize (cool/ram) air from inside the fender well....I thought about adapting an air box from another vehicle with the correct size and shape to fill the space under our hood.

Is that something like you have in mind turbov6joe?

If its is what you have in mind, I'm interested

 

[TTA850]

I've tried playing with ducting cold air into the car and here's what I found.

With a ATR maf pipe and 9" K&N with the i=air temp sensor mounted between the air filter and the maf sensor I usually see temps between 125-135(or higher)and they come down to around 95-105 by the top end.

I've tried removing the air filter and routing alum tubing into where the headlight is(and removing the headlight) then I tried running it into the fenderwell thinking the removed headlight might effect the aerodynamics.

What I found was that even though I had reduced incoming air temps close to or at ambient(75*)the car picked up nothing.DS files showed no change in air/fuel and no changes at all aside from intake air temps.The one thing I did find was that it seemed to spool up slightly better which I later found to be a dirty air filter.

What I learned,as long as the intercooler is cool and working properly it doesnt seem to matter what the temp of the intake air is,the temp coming out of the intercooler is still the same.Maybe I have different results than some because I have a front mount which doesnt heat soak like stock locations do(I have run 6 passes back to back at an event within 3 hundreths of each other, 11.49-11.52).

I'm not saying it wont be bennificial in some respect I just think it's more important to keep your intercooler cool than cool the air going into the turbo.

Steve

 

[Captain Mark]

Will this work on our cars?

http://www.measeperformance.com/inttr1.html

 

[turbov6joe]

TTA850,
It's really kind of hard comparing a FMIC to the stock location as they are 2 completely different beasts as I'm sure your well aware of. On my old car that had a PT&E FMIC I also noticed no additional gains with a fresh air intake; this I'm sure was a result of the ultra efficient IC sitting in the air stream at 125+ MPH. The TTA's stock location IC and closed front end is no where even close to being as efficient, so comparing your results to what I might see with the stock IC is an apples to oranges sanario.
You mentioned "the DS files showed no change in A/F ratio." Are you aware that this number is not real time nor "real", but merely a "guesstimate" by the computer based off of what the desired A/F ratio programmed into the chip for that moment in time is??? That number is as worthless as tits on a bore hog to be honest with ya. Without a wide band O2 sensor the A/F ratio that DS gives ya is bunk....point made so I'm off that box.
I disagree with what you said in your 5th paragraph down. I would bet you a paycheck that if one were to measure the air going into the TB with and without a CAI, one would see a lower number at the TB with a "functional" CAI. I find it very hard to believe that if in one case the air going into the compressor is 135º and in another case the air is 70º, one would not see lower intake temps on the second senario.....prove me wrong and I'll buy you a beer next time we meet. Yes it is imperative to keep the IC cool, and one easy way to do it is to introduce cool air into it (via the turbo) to begin with...IE cool ambient air and not HOT underhood air. Hot underhood air getting compressed by the turbo and hotter yet is doing nothing more than decreasing the efficiency of the not so efficient IC even more so. Ambient air going through the IC and ambient air getting compressed by the turbo is win-win as far as I see it.....135º air going in and ambient going through is loose-win at best IMO. My idea is not to re-invent the wheel here, but add that "little extra something" to the other "little extra somethings" to equal a larger something....more power
Every little bit helps!
PS...I forgot to mention that the closer the AIT sensor is to the ambient, the more accurately the ECM makes fueling and timing adjustments to complement what the outside temp really is....just another "little something" extra.

 

[turbov6joe]

Captain Mark,
That new IC looks real nice but the price is kinda high....you could build multiple alky kits and have change left over to take momma out for supper and prolly see the same results as with that sweet looking IC. I had a stretch IC that was most of 2 TTA IC's welded together. The dang thing was SO low to the ground I couldn't drive over a tick tack with fear of damaging the thing. I yanked it off and gave it to my pop and put the stocker back on with a big neck mod.....no ET or MPH lost going back to the stocker. I personally think that the stock IC scoop does more than most people give it credit for. The scoop would not fit the stretch IC, thus only about 5 rows actually got high velocity air on it.

 

[TTA850]

turbov6joe,your right in comparing stock locations to front mounts is pointless - and like I said I'm not saying it wont work, just might not be benificial to all.Your also right I wasnt looking at the a/f ratio on the ds but was keeping an eye on the 02's seeing if the car was leaning out or richening up(I was afraid it might lean out due to more air/cooler air but that was not the case).The only thing to change was the intake air temps.

As for the air temp after the intercooler,I was not monitoring it but assume no difference based on the fact that the car stayed within 3 hundreths of a second and mph was within .63mph over a multitude of runs.So your right there may have been a difference but if so I feel it was small.

Please dont think I'm knocking what your trying to do,and if it comes to be and looks good I might just pick one up - like you said every bit helps,it all adds up.I was just pointing out what I have found in my own personal testing.

 

[Razor]

Hey I got the shirt

Been there and done that..was running in my IAT 1 degree above ambient..did it pickup anything..only emotional baggage and bills..let alone the airfilter got dirtier faster..which then cuased a 4-5 MPH drop off at the top end.

I'll quote Grumpy... CAI dont work on these cars..

Good luck with the project..it looks like a great idea.. I still run my straight MAF pipe and the car couldnt be happier. One thing tho, since I spray alky, its probably a moot point what air goes into the turbo..and at 26 PSI..it probably doesnt make a difference if the air is 70 or 100 degrees cuase of the heating by the turbo.

Back under my rock..

 

[turbov6joe]

TTA850...I don't think your "knocking me". The way I see it, the more constructive opinions I get, the more I can put into or take away from this project. This is one of those things that I've wanted to address for a while and will hopefully be able to do without having to hack up my engine compartment to hell and back. I have a fairly low mile festival car that I'm trying dillegently to refrain from making any "permanent" mods to...so this project has to be a REAL clean install or it's not going to happen. The largest obstacle is to finger out how to get the flex hose down through the fenderwell hole and through that area by the evac and vacume cannisters without making any permanent cuts??? The only posotive thing about making a cut to that area is that if I were to ever sell the car, the buyer would have to climb under and physically look up there to see that anything is missing/modified.....something I need to keep in consideration.

Razor,
I also spray alky which does indeed make this project somewhat of a moot point. The only benefit I can see right now is when I'm cruising and the alky is not spraying. I was once told by a chemical engineer that denatured alky atomizes better when the air/parts it's sprayed onto are hot....kinda makes cooling the intake stream a negative effect if ya look at it that way. I'm still going forward with this thing and will use my buddy's chassis dyno and drag strip to see if there any positive power gains to be had. I do know one thing for sure, I need to rig up some kind of an aftermarket scoop for the IC and get rid of that pathetic excuse for a scoop that came on the car!

 

[TTA89]

Originally posted by Razor
Hey I got the shirt

Been there and done that..was running in my IAT 1 degree above ambient..did it pickup anything..only emotional baggage and bills..let alone the airfilter got dirtier faster..which then cuased a 4-5 MPH drop off at the top end.

I'll quote Grumpy... CAI dont work on these cars..

Good luck with the project..it looks like a great idea.. I still run my straight MAF pipe and the car couldnt be happier. One thing tho, since I spray alky, its probably a moot point what air goes into the turbo..and at 26 PSI..it probably doesnt make a difference if the air is 70 or 100 degrees cuase of the heating by the turbo.

Back under my rock..

I like laughing in the background at those posts...

They should read..

"I added 10 pounds of restrictive ducting to my car to pick up 10 degree cooler air that is getting pushed through a rediculously hot turbo and then through an intercooler."

Does it matter? Hell No.... I'll take a shorter intake tract with 30 degree hotter air over a longer tract with cooler air. Your making the Turbo work harder when you make it pull from longer distances.

Why do you think we run cone filters instead of the factory can air cleaner?

 

[turbov6joe]

Oh the negativity is kill'n me We've proven with hard numbers that the DC Tech system works on the TR's, now it's time to see if it's the same way on the TTA's??? Nothing lost...tons gained!

 

[turbov6joe]

Well after MUCHO consideration and lots of pondering, I've decided to nix the original CAI idea and go another route. I based this decision on the fact that I refuse to cut up my TTA in any way shape or form...too damn rare and nice of a car to do so. I did however come up with another way of forcing ambient air into the fender well by the filter, that, all things considered, should work almost as well! I will be using a DC Tech "powercone" and custom ducting that I'm in the process of putting together as I write this....more details and pics to follow. If nothing else, this additional ambient air should also assist in forcing out hot underhood air and create a cool air pocket in and around the filter. Back to the drawing board.