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Black Boxes for Cars - Legal or Not?

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Is the use of EDR's an invasion of privacy?

  • Yes - It violates my constitutional right to unreasonable searches

    Votes: 10 50.0%
  • No - There is no "right to privacy" while driving on public roads

    Votes: 10 50.0%

  • Total voters
    20

TurboJunky

Fire the Federal Gov't
Joined
Nov 5, 2002
Messages
5,104
http://www.newhouse.com/archive/jensen061203.html

Cars' `Black Boxes' Hold Crash Data, New Privacy Issues

BY CHRISTOPHER JENSEN
c.2003 Newhouse News Service

When Edwin Matos killed the girls, he didn't know his car would become a witness for the prosecution.

Like millions of Americans, Matos had no idea his car contained an
electronic device recording what he did just before the crash, but it was information that would help send him to prison.

Matos was driving the 2002 Pontiac Trans Am in a 30 mph zone of a suburb near Fort Lauderdale, Fla., when the car driven by a teenage girl pulled out of a driveway into his path.

The driver and her friend died instantly.

Defense lawyer Robert Stanziale said Matos was going about 60 mph. Assistant State Prosecutor Michael Horowitz said that his accident investigator calculated Matos was traveling about 98 mph. The electronic data recorder in Matos' car showed his peak speed was 114 mph in the seconds before the crash.

Last month, the information from the EDR helped convict Matos of two counts of manslaughter and two counts of vehicular homicide.

Matos, 47, is scheduled to be sentenced this Friday. He faces a
minimum of 22 years and a maximum of 30 years in prison.

While most people are familiar with the black boxes in aircraft, which also serve as event data recorders, few motorists know there are similar devices in their vehicles as part of the system that controls air bags. Only 36 percent of the 38,000 people surveyed by the Insurance Research Council were aware of EDRs.

But at least 10 million vehicles have them, estimated Philip W.
Haseltine, president of the Automotive Coalition for Traffic Safety, a lobbying group in Arlington, Va.

The most sophisticated EDRs collect pre-crash information including the speed of the vehicle, whether the driver was accelerating or braking and whether the seat belts were buckled.

The collection of such information has excited a wide range of groups for different reasons, and EDRs have the potential to become one of the more controversial issues in the auto industry.

Safety researchers see EDRs as an excellent way to get more detailed information about real-world crashes so they can see how to improve safety.

Insurance companies see EDRs as a way to determine who is at fault in an accident and whether seat belts were used. One day they could also allow an insurance company to know who is naughty and nice in everyday driving.

The courts see EDRs as an new tool to determine the guilt or innocence of people involved in serious, criminal accidents.

Privacy groups see EDRs as electronic snoops and a threat to privacy. Consumers Union, the nonprofit group that publishes Consumer Reports, says "there are significant potential dangers" to motorists' privacy.

The prime role of EDRs has been to control air bags and to record
information about how well they worked during a crash. General Motors Corp. took the lead in collecting more information.

Starting with the 1999 model year, all GM vehicles had EDRs programmed to record about five seconds of pre-crash information. That included whether the driver was accelerating or braking and the speed of the vehicle, according to a study by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.

The idea was to learn more about how to improve crash performance. After selected, serious crashes, GM would collect the information with the permission of the owner of the vehicle, said Jim Schell, a GM spokesman.

GM routinely shared that information with the highway traffic safety administration.

While all vehicles with air bags use EDRs, other automakers have not been as quick to increase the amount of information recorded. Some are worried that consumers may resent having such personal information collected and they're waiting to see what happens to GM, Haseltine said.

Those include Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler Corp., where company
officials say they generally have limited capability on their EDR
systems.

"We don't want our vehicle owners thinking that their manufacturer is conspiring against them," said Rick Ruth, Ford's manager of design analysis.

So far, GM doesn't appear to have suffered any public backlash, said Haseltine, whose group is funded by major automakers. But he acknowledges that could be because relatively few people know about the devices and how they could be used.

During the Florida case, the accuracy of the EDR was challenged by Matos' lawyer, Stanziale, in several areas.

He argued that it was new technology and that it had not been accepted or proven. The judge dismissed that argument in the face of various studies by groups including NHTSA.

Stanziale also argued that Matos had modified his Trans Am, changing the size of the tires and even the engine's software to make itfaster. That, he said, would have caused the EDR to make wrong calculations.

Horowitz said there was no proof the changes affected the EDR.

Horowitz contends the EDR played an important role in convincing the jury because it was part of the car's safety equipment and was simply recording the information. "It is not for the prosecution or defense," he said.

The devices can provide important information ranging from the force of the impact to how the air bag deployed. That all helps
investigators to understand "the nuances of a crash," said Sean Kane, partner in Strategic Safety, a safety research firm based in
Alexandria, Va.

But for the complete crash picture, EDR information must be considered along with other crash investigation techniques, Kane said.

Generally, EDRs have been found to be accurate, but not perfect,
according to studies by groups like NHTSA and its Canadian
counterpart, Transport Canada.

There is a need to use caution, warned one Transport Canada study. "It is evident that, in certain situations, the stored data may not correspond to the actual situation in the vehicle."

Automakers say the information collected by EDRs belongs to the owner or the person who leased the vehicle and they will not download it without permission. But that doesn't mean others can't get it.

In the Matos case, a judge issued a search warrant allowing the
prosecution to harvest the information.

Criminal court cases involving EDRs have been rare, but industry
observers expect them more often as the number of vehicles with EDRs increases.

That may make many people unhappy. Fewer than half of the 38,000 surveyed by the Insurance Research Council favored the use of EDRs to investigate accidents and determine fault.

But the insurance industry maintains EDRs are a good idea because the information can help determine what really happened, said Sean McManamy, a spokesman for the American Insurance Association, a lobbying group.

Consumers Union has warned the NHTSA that without regulations to limit the disclosure of such information, there is the potential for abuse, such as insurance companies requiring consumers to have EDRs and make the information available as a condition for providing insurance.

Such electronic devices also raise the possibility of routine
monitoring of how customers drive.
 
I'm just waiting for someone to tell me how to disable the one on my new Vette.
 
If law enforcement ever gets the bright idea that they can randomly check black boxes whenever they feel like it,
BAD...

I've also heard these boxes are capable of being pinpointed by satellite...how would you like to have a satellite issue you a speeding ticket?
BAD...

However, as for determining whether someone's foolish driving was the cause of an accident, that almost sounds like a GOOD thing...
 
Do you ever seem these days to get more freedom . Think about it . By the way i think the idea is stupid , lets put black boxes in peoples houses next :mad:
 
I personally belive that to be a bit different , the black boxes are there for more reasons than i care to debate right now at 12:11am . In closing id like to add i dont care if they have one as long as the plane isnt mine and not ALL planes have them . Check it out . :o
 
Thankfully my silver box in the old '87 is rather stoopid. ;)

Well excepting the maxeffort chip that's smarter than me. :D

Don't feel the need for anything higher tech. :cool:

If I owned a car with one of those boxes I'd take it out and check it out. Maybe buy a spare one with a clean memory. :)

Self incrimination from your own car doesn't sound too appealing to me.....
 
Well, do I think that a Black Box on a car should be mandatory, No!
However, I do not think they are illegal and I certainly don't see it as a violation of my rights. Just like a gun you own can be used against you in court as forensic evidence, so can the Black Box and I have no problem with it. Satellite tracking.. I think we are getting a little paranoid again but I'd be happy if they find my stolen car via satellite and catch the guy in it.
 
Eh.....doesn't bother me on way or the other.

If as you say a satellite can find your car....woo hoo....look out car theives!!

If you worry about the box recording something bad you are doing....well......think of it as a subtle reminder to behave yourself :-) And I am not talking about driving 56 in a 55 either.

I am not worried if they put one in my house...it never leaves the yard.
 
Black box is taking it a bit far..

Of course, I understand the safety aspects and things that can be learned to improve cars in accidents, but as far as court proceedings and insurance companies go?? NO... As it said in the article, there needs to be a way to allow the consumer to protect themselves. What seems to be starting now in a few manufacturers could be commonplace in 20 years time when everyone will have had to have bought a car. That means that virtually everybody's car will have these and in that time I'm sure more ways to exploit this will be developed as well. Like police just plugging into your car to tell that you were or weren't speeding. It'd probably be a situation like "Ok, you computer says you were speeding, here's your ticket!" -or- "Ok, your computer didn't say you were speeding, but my radar gun did so here's your ticket!"

As we all here know.. technology doesn't ALWAYS work right either. A faulty sensor could indicate we hit another car with the force of a Mack truck and in reality it was a simple bumper tap. Speed indications could be faulty by simply changing the size of tire or rear end gear.

As for the satellite tracking. I do feel that's a violation of our right to privacy. It's unlikely that anyone is going to care where I go or what I'm doing, but by the same token, I'm against the idea of making every car trackable. As the article said, this information belongs to the owner and can be easily abused. We hear about thieves that pick off the frequency of car alarm remotes so they can steal cars. What makes you think a would-be thief wouldn't use the same technology to track your movements.

OK.. enough on this. No to the black box... good idea, but too many bad things comin' out of it.
 
Originally posted by Renthorin
Eh.....doesn't bother me on way or the other.

If as you say a satellite can find your car....woo hoo....look out car theives!!

If you worry about the box recording something bad you are doing....well......think of it as a subtle reminder to behave yourself :-) And I am not talking about driving 56 in a 55 either.

I am not worried if they put one in my house...it never leaves the yard.

I agree with ya there... if someone steals my car... they better be dead before I get to 'em. But as far as tracking my car, that should be my choice, not the governments or General Motors. Same if I want to participate in black box recording for their data.

I have considered a tracking system for my car in the event it's stolen. There was a thread here just recently selling a device. But that should be my choice.

As far as the whislte blower to remind you to behave... if that's the case, why don't they just put a speed limiter set to 56?? We all know THAT wouldn't go over well!!!
 
"As far as the whislte blower to remind you to behave... if that's the case, why don't they just put a speed limiter set to 56??"

Because the speed limit is 70 here.........

:-)
 
Well.. I think the 4th amendment covers the issue in relation to privacy... Protection of unreasonable searches and seizures. Since the 4th does accomodate for vehicles that are in a "public place" are subject to plain view and establishing probable cause that a vehicle in an accident violated a traffic law why not use the computer. I think the initial thought was some sorta safety spin to "build gm" cars a bit safer.. I would not say it is a violation of privacy but is definetly an intrusive component which would be a deciding factor in buying another GM (other than an 87 Buick ;) ).

As far as the satellite debate goes I am kinda bias here, I seriously doubt this generation will see any sort of trianglization/satellite enforcement of speed.. On the other side of that you gotta love OnStar- Get a vehicle stolen you can find out where it is, direction of travel, and a bunch of other good things so you can catch the person and get the car back.
 
Originally posted by Renthorin
"As far as the whislte blower to remind you to behave... if that's the case, why don't they just put a speed limiter set to 56??"

Because the speed limit is 70 here.........

:-)

Just an example... NO SPEED LIMITS HERE... :p
 
lets put black boxes in peoples houses next

We already have them. Got cable TV? Cordless telephone? Carry a cell phone where ever you go? Computer? Do you know how EASY it is to go to Radio Shack, buy a scanner, and listen to most any wireless communication? It is that simple and it has been going on since scanners came out decades ago. Privacy can be overrated. Just our buying habits tells anyone who cares to take a look who we are. The car thing is just another way in a long list of things that we enjoy todays lifestyle. There was a thread similar to this a month ago dealing with this black box thing. I stated then as I will now, do nothing wrong and nobody has a thing to worry about. Next time you use your cell phone remember, not only does someone know exactly where you are but somebody is probaly listening. Have a nice day! Drew:)
 
There are many legal issues here. Here's my take for what it's worth....

The Constitution (including 4th Amendment) is designed and intended to limit GOVERNMENT authority. With that in mind I feel any info held within the computer be kept completely confidential unless the vehicle is involved in a fatal accident. At any other time the government wished to "search" the on board computer for info, it must petition the court for a search warrant before doing so. The right against "unreasonable search and seizure" does not affect non-government enteties, however it could affect sales which would dictate whether or not manufacturers proceed with this technology. I believe that's why Ford and Chrysler are taking a "wait and see" approach.
 
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