Building a 4.1L

[dngrous_dime]

Okay, I got a decent deal on a complete 4.1L engine. It's going into a 96 S-10, which I'm fairly certain has never been done before. I'm not sure which year it is, exactly.
So, what I'm doing, is taking the fuel injection setup from an 85 Century. Clutch is going to be hob-jobbed from several sources, my mechanic is in charge of that. I got the bellhousing from a 79 Monza with a 3.8L, as well as the flywheel.
Trans will be a T5 from a 93-95 V6 F-body. I know I'll need to run bucket seats to work with that trans, which is fine. I love having the shifter tucked up close to my thigh, anyway.

So, the question I have, is how much trouble will I have, trying to get the Century accessories to work with my 4.1L? Mainly the crank pulley, since I can't get a clear answer on how it's mounted. The reason I want to use the Century stuff, is so the water pump outlet will be on the driver's side, rather than the passenger.
Plus, since it's tucked closer to the block, it gives me more leeway for engine positioning.

I'll be running an E-fan (probably from a Northstar), and a 4.3L radiator. (keeps it looking factory)


Total budget for the swap is $2K, and I've gotten good deals on everything so far.

 

[charlief1]

Um....NO! Your intake will have to be mounted backwards so that the water outlet and air inlet is at the firewall. Plus the fact that the water inlet is backwards to the s-10 (radiator problem?). As far as the acc brackets there's not much diff between the 84-85 GN and the century. Plus it's not emision legal because of the year difference. If you're in an area that requires emisions to be legal you're screwed.

 

[fuzzyGN]

Also, the Monza bellhousing has a pull type lever and requires a cable to work. The Monza flywheel will only support a 9" diameter clutch so if you make much HP it will be short lived. Whatever you do, just don't put a T-50 in it from the Monza family because it won't live at all. The V6 T-5 should be fine. Finally, keep an eye on the thrust bearing in the engine because if you have an agressive pressure plate it will kill it too. All leasons learned the expensive way. An auto with brake now going into the car.

 

[dngrous_dime]

Um....NO! Your intake will have to be mounted backwards so that the water outlet and air inlet is at the firewall. Plus the fact that the water inlet is backwards to the s-10 (radiator problem?). As far as the acc brackets there's not much diff between the 84-85 GN and the century. Plus it's not emision legal because of the year difference. If you're in an area that requires emisions to be legal you're screwed.

No emissions to worry about here.
I'm not quite following what you meant about the intakes being backwards? I can handle a little extra plumbing, as long as it's not going to require MAJOR fabrication.

And the water outlet is the reason I wanted to swap to FWD stuff, so it points toward the driver's side. (S-10 has the radiator inlet on the top left)

 

[charlief1]

No emissions to worry about here.
I'm not quite following what you meant about the intakes being backwards? I can handle a little extra plumbing, as long as it's not going to require MAJOR fabrication.

And the water outlet is the reason I wanted to swap to FWD stuff, so it points toward the driver's side. (S-10 has the radiator inlet on the top left)

Sounds like you have a 4 banger truck. The 4.3 rad has the correct inlet and outlet for what you want. The v6 engine has the water coming in at the bottom on the pass side, goes through the block to the back then up through the heads to the front of the heads. By reversing the intake it will go from the block and only cool the rear of the heads and into the intake. Look at the bottom side and follow the water inlet to the outlet and you'll see what I mean.

 

[dngrous_dime]

Sounds like you have a 4 banger truck. The 4.3 rad has the correct inlet and outlet for what you want. The v6 engine has the water coming in at the bottom on the pass side, goes through the block to the back then up through the heads to the front of the heads. By reversing the intake it will go from the block and only cool the rear of the heads and into the intake. Look at the bottom side and follow the water inlet to the outlet and you'll see what I mean.

Yes, I currently have a 2.2L. Thus, my VERY strong desire to get rid of it and have an engine with enough power to get out of its own way without spinning to 5K.

When you say "the v6 engine", you're referring to the 4.3L? I could have SWORN the rad was set up just like mine. (edit: After checking with several pictures, the 2.2L radiator has the inlet on the top passenger side, and the outlet on the bottom driver's side. 4.3L rad, the sides are just reversed. )
So, If I were using the 2.2L radiator, it's set up exactly how I'd need it to be, for the 4.1L. Problem is, there's no way that skinny little thing will keep anything with more than 4 cylinders cool.


To use the Blazer radiator, I want the water pump outlet to face the driver's side. Since there's no thermostat in the radiator itself, it shouldn't matter which way the coolant flows through it. The only difference in the Century intake would be the water neck location? Since there's still coolant flowing, and it's almost the same block, it "should" keep everything cooled properly?


At least that's my thinking on it, and I may very well be completely wrong. That's why I'm asking the experts. I'd look at my engine and the Century engine to compare, but mine is about 18 miles away, and the Century's is about 35 miles, in a junkyard.

 

[charlief1]

Yes, I currently have a 2.2L. Thus, my VERY strong desire to get rid of it and have an engine with enough power to get out of its own way without spinning to 5K.

When you say "the v6 engine", you're referring to the 4.3L? I could have SWORN the rad was set up just like mine. (edit: After checking with several pictures, the 2.2L radiator has the inlet on the top passenger side, and the outlet on the bottom driver's side. 4.3L rad, the sides are just reversed. )
So, If I were using the 2.2L radiator, it's set up exactly how I'd need it to be, for the 4.1L. Problem is, there's no way that skinny little thing will keep anything with more than 4 cylinders cool.


To use the Blazer radiator, I want the water pump outlet to face the driver's side. Since there's no thermostat in the radiator itself, it shouldn't matter which way the coolant flows through it. The only difference in the Century intake would be the water neck location? Since there's still coolant flowing, and it's almost the same block, it "should" keep everything cooled properly?


At least that's my thinking on it, and I may very well be completely wrong. That's why I'm asking the experts. I'd look at my engine and the Century engine to compare, but mine is about 18 miles away, and the Century's is about 35 miles, in a junkyard.

All of the 90 degree v6 engines used in rwd applications have the same inlet and outlet positions if it's from GM, except maybe the forth gen f body. When GM decided to use the 3.0 and 3.8 in the front wheel drive they changed the bell housing and the way the water ran through the intake. Since the radiator had the water outlet on the passenger side they had to have the engine outlet go to the drivers side. Since the only way to cool the engine properly was that the coolant had to come from the heads at the front of the engine above the timing cover they had to redesign the intake. To do this they made the water enter the intake at the front of the engine, go through the intake to the rear of the engine and out the thermo housing to the rad. If you flip the intake the water will not flow through the heads properly and will exit from the block to the BACK of the heads and not flow through the heads to cool them. You can use the intake but it has to stay in it's original position. Some one on the board mentioned that the fwd intake doesn't flow as much air but I don't think it would be an issue. One other option you COULD do is find an f body with a 3.8 and either a stick or auto. Check in the hybred section and do a search. There is at least 1 thread on putting a 3.8 seriesII in a rwd g body. Good info and a great build. The seriesII use heads simular to a stageII engine but the block is on center unlike the 4.1 that's off center. I wish someone would make an intake to put the seriesII heads on older blocks but no one does yet. It would be one H*LL of a swap for the heads and produce some great power.

 

[dngrous_dime]

All of the 90 degree v6 engines used in rwd applications have the same inlet and outlet positions if it's from GM, except maybe the forth gen f body. When GM decided to use the 3.0 and 3.8 in the front wheel drive they changed the bell housing and the way the water ran through the intake. Since the radiator had the water outlet on the passenger side they had to have the engine outlet go to the drivers side. Since the only way to cool the engine properly was that the coolant had to come from the heads at the front of the engine above the timing cover they had to redesign the intake. To do this they made the water enter the intake at the front of the engine, go through the intake to the rear of the engine and out the thermo housing to the rad. If you flip the intake the water will not flow through the heads properly and will exit from the block to the BACK of the heads and not flow through the heads to cool them. You can use the intake but it has to stay in it's original position. Some one on the board mentioned that the fwd intake doesn't flow as much air but I don't think it would be an issue. One other option you COULD do is find an f body with a 3.8 and either a stick or auto. Check in the hybred section and do a search. There is at least 1 thread on putting a 3.8 seriesII in a rwd g body. Good info and a great build. The seriesII use heads simular to a stageII engine but the block is on center unlike the 4.1 that's off center. I wish someone would make an intake to put the seriesII heads on older blocks but no one does yet. It would be one H*LL of a swap for the heads and produce some great power.

So, in short, my only issue with the Century intake manifold will be the water outlet being in the wrong position, as it bolts in? That's easy enough to re-route a hose around. If I wanted, or expected, this to all be a bolt-in procedure, I'd have gone SBC. lol

Eventually, this engine will be getting a turbo, and my mechanic is guesstimating 250hp from it.

 

["Turbo-T"]

Yes, I currently have a 2.2L. Thus, my VERY strong desire to get rid of it and have an engine with enough power to get out of its own way without spinning to 5K.

When you say "the v6 engine", you're referring to the 4.3L?

Yes, the 4.3 liter. That's the only V6 used in the S-10's from 1994 on up.

And I can understand the want to chuck the 2.2 for something with guts. I give you props for what you're doing; I myself would small block it and be done with it. But a turbo 6 is cool too. Get ready to roll your sleeves up for some serious fab work.

BTW, someone on here has a turbo intercooled 3.8 in their '94 Sonoma. Check in the hybrid section, it's in there.

 

[Grumpy]

I myself would small block it and be done with it.

X2 .. lots of V8 trucks out there

 

[dngrous_dime]

Yes, the 4.3 liter. That's the only V6 used in the S-10's from 1994 on up.

And I can understand the want to chuck the 2.2 for something with guts. I give you props for what you're doing; I myself would small block it and be done with it. But a turbo 6 is cool too. Get ready to roll your sleeves up for some serious fab work.

BTW, someone on here has a turbo intercooled 3.8 in their '94 Sonoma. Check in the hybrid section, it's in there.

I knew the 4.3L was the only V6 in the s-series, I just wasn't sure if he was referring to the 4.3 or 4.1, when he first said "the v6".

I saw the other guy's build, impressive. I don't think the fab work will be too involved, really. Motor mounts will be the V8 mounts from jagsthatrun, so that part will be a bolt-in. As for trans crossmember, I'm using a 79-93 Mustang double-hump, so there's some adjustability in the placement there, too. Even if it does take some pretty intensive custom work, I'm not afraid of a welder. (although some people are afraid of ME with a welder)

And as for the small-blocks, that's what everyone does. I'm doing this to be different, which is just one more reason for the T5. (and they're just plain more fun to drive)

 

["Turbo-T"]

I knew the 4.3L was the only V6 in the s-series, I just wasn't sure if he was referring to the 4.3 or 4.1, when he first said "the v6".

4.3 wasn't the only V6 used in the S-10, they also used to use the 2.8's up until the end of the 1993 run. There was never a 4.1 in an S-10. Just 2.8's (82-93), 4.3's (88-04) and a list of 4 cylinders from 1.9 liters to 2.5 liters, to include a rare diesel 2.2 liter.:

I saw the other guy's build, impressive. I don't think the fab work will be too involved, really.

It may not, just notice how there's not much room for an intercooler, and thus that was installed inside the truck. So plan on that. Might also mean the elimination of the HVAC set up, unless you can figure a way around it or don't care.

And as for the small-blocks, that's what everyone does. I'm doing this to be different, which is just one more reason for the T5. (and they're just plain more fun to drive)

True, the small block route is the most common and easiest way to make them go fast. The LSX route is a bit more work but not as common and still comes out as a cool package.

One thing though....make sure that T-5 is capable of handling what you're doing. I know the T-5's used on the 305 powered Camaros and Firebirds were notorious for blowing apart even when used on the low powered 305. I'm not kidding. I'm pretty sure the ones from the 93-95 Camaro's were probably no better, not 100% sure though. I think a T-56 would hold up better.

 

[dngrous_dime]

4.3 wasn't the only V6 used in the S-10, they also used to use the 2.8's up until the end of the 1993 run. There was never a 4.1 in an S-10. Just 2.8's (82-93), 4.3's (88-04) and a list of 4 cylinders from 1.9 liters to 2.5 liters, to include a rare diesel 2.2 liter.:

Yeah, I was talking about 2nd gens, tho. I know more about S-10s than I care to admit, lol.

It may not, just notice how there's not much room for an intercooler, and thus that was installed inside the truck. So plan on that. Might also mean the elimination of the HVAC set up, unless you can figure a way around it or don't care.

I've got an idea up my sleeve, but that's not going to matter until I add a turbo.
The HVAC is going to be heat-only, not like it gets TOO hot here in the summer. It might top 100 2-3 days of the year. Plus, that's what windows are for.

True, the small block route is the most common and easiest way to make them go fast. The LSX route is a bit more work but not as common and still comes out as a cool package.

One thing though....make sure that T-5 is capable of handling what you're doing. I know the T-5's used on the 305 powered Camaros and Firebirds were notorious for blowing apart even when used on the low powered 305. I'm not kidding. I'm pretty sure the ones from the 93-95 Camaro's were probably no better, not 100% sure though. I think a T-56 would hold up better.

T-56 would freaking AWESOME, but not the price. Most places I've seen them in junkyards want $1400 and up for one. And, I'm not even sure I could make it work with the same bellhousing, or if I'd have to get one fabricated, etc... It's just more than I really want to deal with, right now.
As I've said before, the budget for this whole swap is $2K, without turbo.
I'm not going to be making huge power with just the FI setup, I just want a 5-speed. If I can find a much stronger manual for less than my firstborn, I'll probably pick it up. But, as my mechanic and I have agreed on, my rearend will need changed out before I even think about any power-adders.

 

["Turbo-T"]

If you don't beat on it too hard, the stock 7.625 rear will live. FWIW I used to have a small blocked S-10 with the stock 7.5 rear. Never did it break despite the numerous burnouts and tire barkings/chirps I used to do with it. But yes an 8.5 rear or a 9 inch should be considered.

But $1400 for a T56???? Wow....

 

[dngrous_dime]

Welcome to Michigan. lol

As for the rear, I can break traction on wet pavement with my 2.2L auto. I hate open diffs.

I'm planning an Explorer 8.8" rear with the TracLock, or whatever they call it. Disc brakes will be a nice bonus, as well.

Eventually, upgrading to the 02+ Explorer IRS is planned, as well as air-ride and a stock floor bodydrop. (no, you're not expected to know wtf I'm talking about. lol)

 

[dr_frankenstein]

there has been alot of buick S10 swaps....just a pain in the ass.

go for the 4.3....... you will be happier in the end. You will get more time driving and having fun VS the work involved for a buick.

A.j.

 

[dngrous_dime]

there has been alot of buick S10 swaps....just a pain in the ass.

go for the 4.3....... you will be happier in the end. You will get more time driving and having fun VS the work involved for a buick.

A.j.

No thanks. I've already stated, if I wanted easy, I wouldn't customize anything.
And the whole swap will take less than a week, once all the parts are collected, and test-fitted.


edit: Besides, I'll be making more power with the 4.1L, once the turbo is added.

 

[dngrous_dime]

I've been thinking, what would you all reccommend as a good set of upgrades, without doing a full rebuild? I was told the engine ran fine when it was pulled from the donor car, so aside from pulling the oilpan and heads, I don't think I'll be going any deeper into it looking for trouble.

It will eventually be turboed, but not for a couple more years. (sooner if I get the extra money)

good cams, etc?

 

[charlief1]

I've been thinking, what would you all reccommend as a good set of upgrades, without doing a full rebuild? I was told the engine ran fine when it was pulled from the donor car, so aside from pulling the oilpan and heads, I don't think I'll be going any deeper into it looking for trouble.

It will eventually be turboed, but not for a couple more years. (sooner if I get the extra money)

good cams, etc?

There are several different things you can do but...at least tear the engine down all the way to make sure it's in good shape. The 4.1 I got from a friend had 1 spun rod and main. Not what I wanted to see. Take the heads and block to a machine shop and have them cracked checked, then have the guides cut down for more lift. Stock will allow no more than about .420 lift. Do Earls timing cover mods for oil presure to keep the bottom end alive. I can post some pics of the intake mods if you want to help on overall performance. There's a great deal of mods in the before black section so go there and look them up in a search.