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Champion irons, ?receiver groove

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tracer

INOV8
Joined
Aug 7, 2002
Messages
245
Going to upgrade to Champion irons and 206/206 for my TE-44 basic recipe car. I currently run JC alcohol kit but will be moving to propane when it's available and hoping to run 24-25lbs boost. Should I order the heads with receiver grooves with this kind of boost to prevent popping HG's? If so what are the best head gaskets?

tanks!
 
Originally posted by tracer
Going to upgrade to Champion irons and 206/206 for my TE-44 basic recipe car. I currently run JC alcohol kit but will be moving to propane when it's available and hoping to run 24-25lbs boost. Should I order the heads with receiver grooves with this kind of boost to prevent popping HG's? If so what are the best head gaskets?

tanks!
yes get the receiver grooves in there. i have them in mine. i would run factory ac delco head gaskets.
 
Receiver grooves are for use with Fel Pro Loc-wire gaskets since the gasket has a wire that goes into a groove machined into the head. These work for some guys and are a total friggin nightmare for others. The most important part is that the grooves are cut correctly to the proper width and depth with the right tool. Not a lot of guys have this procedure down as good as they should and guys blow gaskets, have water leaks etc..

If you want to run GM stock head gaskets you can get stainless wires put into grooves that are machined into the heads and the wire will crush into the gaskets fire ring metal part so they won't blow as easy. Dave Weber in Ohio does this service and it works well. I reccomend this method.
 
Originally posted by U1ARUNIT
Receiver grooves are for use with Fel Pro Loc-wire gaskets since the gasket has a wire that goes into a groove machined into the head. These work for some guys and are a total friggin nightmare for others. The most important part is that the grooves are cut correctly to the proper width and depth with the right tool. Not a lot of guys have this procedure down as good as they should and guys blow gaskets, have water leaks etc..

If you want to run GM stock head gaskets you can get stainless wires put into grooves that are machined into the heads and the wire will crush into the gaskets fire ring metal part so they won't blow as easy. Dave Weber in Ohio does this service and it works well. I reccomend this method.
Dave Weber at Weber racing did mine also.
 
Maybe I can get the Champions and Weber 206/206 through Dave? Anybody have contact info?
 
Originally posted by tracer
What about Champion, can they do this for me?
Call Quad Air, buy the heads off them tell them you want the heads with the receiver grooves put in at Weber Racing. the total price for the iron heads with the receiver grooves is $1345. Quad Air phone # 440-235-3232
 
Originally posted by tracer
Maybe I can get the Champions and Weber 206/206 through Dave? Anybody have contact info?
i got the cam from Weber also 206-206. Weber#440-327-7702
 
Many thanks! BTW, with stock gaskets do the grooves increase compression ratio?
 
GNX

About how much does Weber charge for the ringing of the heads.
Thanks!
 
Originally posted by tracer
What about Champion, can they do this for me?

Yes, Champion will do this for you. I had my Champions grooved by them, when I purchased them, at an additional $75 fee. This way, if you have any problems with them, Champion should back you on it.

As mentioned by someone else, these grooves are cut and designed for the Fel-Pro 1007 Loc-wire gaskets. I have run these on my Turbo T that I sold, and never had any problems. The key is to properly prep the surfaces when installing, and be EXTREMELY careful to align everything when setting the head on the gasket/block. You would need to follow Fel-Pro's specific torque sequence and specs, and still retorque the heads after running the car, before submitting it to alot of boost.

If you've not done this sort of thing before, I would at the very least get someone to help you, that has some experience. When they're right, they're great! However, if you mis-install them, you may experience leaks that will cause problems. People's opinions vary on this subject, per the fact that they have worked fantastic for some of us, and been a nightmare for others. Myself, I insist on them because I don't like changing head gaskets frequently, and the stock setup places the bolt holes (only 4 per cylinder) outside of the area where you would really want the extra clamping force, therefore the wire-loc helps eliminate the blown gasket risk. (assuming the rest of the setup is right)
 
i actually called champion to get an opinion on this when i was buying my heads from them ...they said dont do it ...they have to many problems ...i also called about 13 different tr performance shops around the country and only two of the 13 suggested to groove the heads....i didnt do mine ...... and neither did my other two buds who have the heads .... aluminum and irons....
 
Wes:
You are correct in what you stated, in that, Tom at Champion also told me that he's seen alot of trouble with people who have done them, and basically made me tell him I want it done, w/o any encouragement from him.
However, as I mentioned; it all goes back to the installation and steps taken to do it maticulously.
Maybe I should've emphasized this more, as it probably is better advice to encourage against doing it, unless you've had success in the past. As I mentioned though, it has worked for me and another friend, so I know it can be done. When it's done properly, it certainly ensures against blowing a gasket, but of course that force has to go somewhere, which could mean breaking other things like ringlands on the piston, etc. I guess it's a coin toss on whether to do it. Thanks for your input and findings on your inquiries.
 
I guess my main concern is being able to run moderately high boost and not worry about blowing gaskets. Obviously detonation is the key. As long as I can run 25 lbs consistently I'd prefer to go without grooves. In my part of the great white north there aren't many mechanics with experience with these cars, let alone more sophisticated installs.
 
Tracer:
I used to run the Fel-Pro blue series 1000's, long before the wire-locs came out. The 1000's used to be the "upgrade" choice for the TR's. However, I popped many of them too, with far less than 25psi. Nowadays, things have changed and new technologies and practices are in effect, allowing us to compensate in other ways. By what I've seen in the modern TR era, is that many folks are running the stock GM gaskets that originally came on the cars, and with little to no problems. The whole key is in the word "detonation". If you don't detonate it, you should not break it! With the onslaught of high pressure/volume injectors and pumps readily available, and chip technology to control boost and timing however you wish,,, you would be fine running the old stockers or steel shim styles. And, yes, you can get away with 25psi boost by taking out a little timing and adding in more fuel. The combos today are running much faster, easier, by running less timing and more boost. (which is in conflict to what we were doing 10+ years ago.)
Per your concerns, in your particular case, I would avoid grooving the heads, and just make the investment in your fuel system and chips. Jay Carter is on this forum alot, and he will custom burn anything you need. So will Joe Lubrant, and others. Call any of the main vendors such as Cotton's, PTE, RamChargers, etc, and they can set you up with a chip that allows the boost you want, in a controlled environment. By the way, you'll love the Champion irons! Mine were beautiful when I got em'!
 
Originally posted by Wes
i actually called champion to get an opinion on this when i was buying my heads from them ...they said dont do it ...they have to many problems ...i also called about 13 different tr performance shops around the country and only two of the 13 suggested to groove the heads....i didnt do mine ...... and neither did my other two buds who have the heads .... aluminum and irons....
Wonder what two? I know Conley's and PTE prefer 1007's . Is that the only two? I know many more fast guys like them whether shops or not. Mine took a beating and held up fine. If it were stock gaskets I bet I would have popped them. With my piston selection now I am probably better off actually popping them so I went to a stock type gasket.
 
I guess my main concern is being able to run moderately high boost and not worry about blowing gaskets. Obviously detonation is the key. As long as I can run 25 lbs consistently I'd prefer to go without grooves. In my part of the great white north there aren't many mechanics with experience with these cars, let alone more sophisticated installs.
 
tracer,
I had the same concerns as you and went with the 1007's and Champ Iron heads. I did have a problem with the gaskets weeping oil. The grooves probably weren't cut deep enough. I had to run a little gasket sealer around the fluid holes on the cyl head. Everything sealed up great after that. No popped headgaskets..........not to say it won't pop if I do something stupid though.
 
BTW, how tough are these to install? I'm having a local speed shop do the cam and head swap. Is this enough or should I seek out a guru?
 
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