DFIv6.0 users w/mag pickup dist, need advice

[Eric88T]

Hi, new guy here and have a question, maybe someone can steer me in the right direction. I have a 5.0 mustang very mild engine setup w/T64E turbo .69a/r and a DFI v6.0 setup I plan on running that requires a two-wire magnetic pickup distributor. Obviously, the DFI can control most of the timing but I am unsure which combination to use initially for the springs/stop bushings.

Here is the MSD pdf that has the different combinations. Just scroll through the bs and look at the charts for reference:

http://www.msdignition.com/pdf/85551_85561_8547_dists.pdf

I realize this is kind of a shot in the dark but from what I seen, theres probably more DFI gurus in this forum than anywhere else on the net. Any info/advice would be extremely appreciated!

--Eric

 

[Craig Smith]

Lock the distributor! No mechanical advance curves with computer controlled ignitions please

 

[Eric88T]

Duh! Boy am I a tard. Thanks a bunch for the quick response!

--Eric

 

[Eric88T]

I've been reading the archives. I take it your the FAST god Craig. Is Racetronix the Accel god or what? I may need to talk to an old school DFI6.0 guy bout some stuff.

--Eric

 

[Craig Smith]

Sure, I'm the FAST god.

I don't know if Racetronix is the Accel "God" or not, but he is really old. Not as old as Chuck Leeper though! LOL The Racetronix guy should be able to help you with a 6.0 box. There seem to be a couple DFI guys on this forum lately as well. I'm sure they can help you.

 

[Racetronix]

Originally posted by Craig Smith
Sure, I'm the FAST god.

I don't know if Racetronix is the Accel "God" or not, but he is really old. Not as old as Chuck Leeper though! LOL The Racetronix guy should be able to help you with a 6.0 box. There seem to be a couple DFI guys on this forum lately as well. I'm sure they can help you.

Yes Craig, some days I do feel like the world's oldest man.
The day I start popping Viagra then I know I am going downhill fast. Then I will wish I was a god. I guess I can always buy myself a Vette when that happens.

Did someone day DFI 6.0. Is that like DOS 6.0?

All kidding aside ... The MSD EFI sync distributor for a SB Ford is P/N 2382. This distributor provides an inductive signal for both a crank and cam sync. Although you do not need the cam sync signal for your DFI, (not a sequential ECU) this distributor will have the required output(s) and adjustments to work with your ECM. If you decide to upgrade to a sequential ECM then the cam sync output will be there for you. If you go for the MSD 2382 you might want to consider the large cap & adapter as I have run into crossfire problems with the small cap version on higher HP cars. Make sure this large cap will clear your intake as on some Ford's this is a problem. Last time I spoke with the MSD rep there was no P/N assigned to the cap adapter for the 2382 so it has to be ordered by verbal description.

If you are on a budget you can buy a standard billet distributor with a single inductive output. This distributor must be adjustable so that it produces the proper crank timing signal required by your DFI. From what I remember, the base timing in the DFI's firmware was 6 degrees (Chevy) so if you set the distributor to 10 degrees your timing maps will be shy 4 degrees. That drove me crazy on the Buick systems. The distributor must also have the ability to lock the timing in order to work with an ECM (as Craig stated above).

You should make sure that your DFI is meant to be run with either with a magnetic/inductive pickup or with the thick film Ford module. It has been a while since I worked with a DFI 6.0 on a Ford but if memory serves me correctly the firmware and I/P on those boxes had slight differences??? FYI the factory distributor works well provided your DFI 6.0 is compatible with its output?

If you have the space the best option would be a crank trigger. A crank trigger produces a very stable timing signal and is not subject to timing error due to valve train slack (chain stretch & cam flex causing the timing to retard or jump around). The crank pickup is well isolated from high ignition voltages that can create interference problems with your pickup signal. You can use a factory distributor just for the spark distribution in this case.

I assume you have an ignition box such as an MSD6 to fire your coil?

Jack
Racetronix

PS If you drive that car on a regular basis you are going to wish you had a FAST system w/WBO2!

 

[Eric88T]

Originally posted by Racetronix
Yes Craig, some days I do feel like the world's oldest man.
The day I start popping Viagra then I know I am going downhill fast. Then I will wish I was a god. I guess I can always buy myself a Vette when that happens.

Did someone day DFI 6.0. Is that like DOS 6.0?

All kidding aside ... The MSD EFI sync distributor for a SB Ford is P/N 2382. This distributor provides an inductive signal for both a crank and cam sync. Although you do not need the cam sync signal for your DFI, (not a sequential ECU) this distributor will have the required output(s) and adjustments to work with your ECM. If you decide to upgrade to a sequential ECM then the cam sync output will be there for you. If you go for the MSD 2382 you might want to consider the large cap & adapter as I have run into crossfire problems with the small cap version on higher HP cars. Make sure this large cap will clear your intake as on some Ford's this is a problem. Last time I spoke with the MSD rep there was no P/N assigned to the cap adapter for the 2382 so it has to be ordered by verbal description.

If you are on a budget you can buy a standard billet distributor with a single inductive output. This distributor must be adjustable so that it produces the proper crank timing signal required by your DFI. From what I remember, the base timing in the DFI's firmware was 6 degrees (Chevy) so if you set the distributor to 10 degrees your timing maps will be shy 4 degrees. That drove me crazy on the Buick systems. The distributor must also have the ability to lock the timing in order to work with an ECM (as Craig stated above).

You should make sure that your DFI is meant to be run with either with a magnetic/inductive pickup or with the thick film Ford module. It has been a while since I worked with a DFI 6.0 on a Ford but if memory serves me correctly the firmware and I/P on those boxes had slight differences??? FYI the factory distributor works well provided your DFI 6.0 is compatible with its output?

If you have the space the best option would be a crank trigger. A crank trigger produces a very stable timing signal and is not subject to timing error due to valve train slack (chain stretch & cam flex causing the timing to retard or jump around). The crank pickup is well isolated from high ignition voltages that can create interference problems with your pickup signal. You can use a factory distributor just for the spark distribution in this case.

I assume you have an ignition box such as an MSD6 to fire your coil?

Jack
Racetronix

PS If you drive that car on a regular basis you are going to wish you had a FAST system w/WBO2!

I have an MSD dist p/n# 8582, simple two-wire deal, mag. PU for a carb 302. Will this NOT work? I was under the impression that it would. This DFI ECU is made specifically for only non-TFI distributors with the PU ECU jumper mod already made on it to work. No sequential, no vic, just base model batch fire and its for an subpar 650hp goals. Stock cam and high imp injectors to boot.

Yes, I have MSD 6AL ignition and coil.

Are you saying the v6.0 is not streetable because it doesn't have a wideband?

--Eric

 

[Racetronix]

Originally posted by Eric88T
I have an MSD dist p/n# 8582, simple two-wire deal, mag. PU for a carb 302. Will this NOT work? I was under the impression that it would. This DFI ECU is made specifically for only non-TFI distributors with the PU ECU jumper mod already made on it to work. No sequential, no vic, just base model batch fire and its for an subpar 650hp goals. Stock cam and high imp injectors to boot.

Yes, I have MSD 6AL ignition and coil.

Are you saying the v6.0 is not streetable because it doesn't have a wideband?

--Eric

Perhaps you should contact MSD to see if the timing can be locked on that distributor properly.

Streetable is a subjective term. I and many of my customers ran batch fire DFIs years ago when it was one of the only affordable options. It was a love/hate relationship for many. (See my other posts on this board and gnttype.org) Without getting into the 'old vs. new' conversation again all I can say is that a FAST system with WB02 would be worlds better in drivability and your mileage would could easily double. If you drive the car on a daily basis the cost of the new ECM is easily offset by the savings in gas and the frequency with which you will have to change your oil. The WB02 makes tuning a dream, is able to make up for poor map calibrations and it can also save you’re a$$ under less than perfect WOT conditions. The WB02 will save you valuable tuning time before going to the dyno as well as having to pay out extra to use their equipment once you get there.

The FAST system and DFI Gen 7 are both worthy candidates for consideration.

Jack
Racetronix

 

[Eric88T]

Well, it *seems* that everyone I've talked to that had a turbomustang and a DFI said manners were great, streetability was good, no constant babysitting the tune, etc. Not coincidentally, they were also tuned by DFI experts, Job Jr., Murillo, Lugo, etc. Is there something these guys know that no one else does regarding tuning?

 

[Racetronix]

Originally posted by Eric88T
Well, it *seems* that everyone I've talked to that had a turbomustang and a DFI said manners were great, streetability was good, no constant babysitting the tune, etc. Not coincidentally, they were also tuned by DFI experts, Job Jr., Murillo, Lugo, etc. Is there something these guys know that no one else does regarding tuning?

There are certain traits of a non-SD batch fire system that that can not be tuned out regardless of how good a tuner is. The technology has its limitations. As I stated before, the drivability is SUBJECTIVE!. I am not going to get into a debate as to whether a new FAST or Gen 7 system is superior as that is a given as well as the WBO2 benefits. Any dealer who tells you the older DFI is just as good is full of it PERIOD.

As far as experts are concerned, last year I had customer with a Mustang, supercharger and batch fire DFI + VIC. This car was tuned by one of the experts you mentioned. The customer was not happy with idle quality, gas fumes, mileage and all around drivability of the car. This customer was much happier with the factory ECM and MAF. I installed a FAST SEFI unit w/WBO2 and custom Racetronix harness. When it was all said and done the car made 680RWHP @ 6000RPM vs. the 610RWHP @ 6700 with the old system and the expert tune-up. This car can easily break the 700RWHP mark but the small cap distributor was causing problems above 6000RPM. The customer is very happy now and enjoys driving his car on a regular basis. The car has a much lower and smoother idle w/o the stench. The gas mileage has doubled. The car does not exhibit quirks whenever the weather changes.

This scenario also applies to my own car and a few other customers we have like TurboVette. A couple days after installing his FAST system he ran his best time ever at 9.7s running lower boost around 22PSI. Since then his mileage has doubled, he has lower silky smooth idle and superior drivability and less frequent oil changes.

If you can not afford this technology it is understandable as not everybody has $2K+ to drop on a new system but once you have it you would never look back.

Jack
Racetronix

 

[Eric88T]

Thanks for the insight Jack. I'll take all this into consideration.

--Eric

 

[vtec4gs]

Originally posted by Eric88T
Well, it *seems* that everyone I've talked to that had a turbomustang and a DFI said manners were great, streetability was good, no constant babysitting the tune, etc. Not coincidentally, they were also tuned by DFI experts, Job Jr., Murillo, Lugo, etc. Is there something these guys know that no one else does regarding tuning?

I agree with Jack on the older DFI6.0, I used this in my street turbo Honda for a good 3 yrs and fuel consumption/mileage was good for a "batch-fire" setup, however I think the inherent problem with the older DFI was its ability to adjust fuel based on atmospheric conditions, even Job sr. had a pretty tough time getting it right. I've noticed this on a few other DFI 6.0 cars as well.

http://www.drtracing.com/cars/f_froggie/froggie1.htm

The new "hi-tech" stuff is really alot easier, even the setup such as AEM just introduced the Sport Compact people love because of its ability to plug/play and act just as a stock ECM but programming flexibilty and great "street-ability" in terms of they all come with WB sensors to help the user.


Greg