Did the GN really crank out 245 hp?

[TurboJunky]

Originally posted by GNSCOTT
thats why i gave the average, and i think its fair to say the average for a TTA is 13.4. I;'ve also driven in a TTA and it FELT faster than my WS6 and ran a 13.8. Older more unstable cars feel faster because the ride is so much more rougher, Take a 14 sec. pass in a 66 GTO and it feels like your breaking the sound barrier.

I think its a stretch to say the TTA on average ran 13.1. Put 2 stockers on a dyno with 16.5#'s and i'll bet they are both right around 300 rwhp.

Do you think a GN would run the same #'s with a transplanted TTA motor?? I bet if ya turn the boost down to the stock 13.5#'s it doesn't pick up a thing.

Ok, so now we're back to changing the boost levels? Changing the boost levels changes the GN engine from stock which it isn't designed to run with a stock chip. The TTA IS engineered to run with 16.5 lbs. You're comparing apples to oranges, that being a NON stock GN engine to a STOCK TTA engine. Fine, up the boost 2.5 lbs for the GN, the up 2.5 lbs in the TTA....fair's fair.

I bet if you did "this that and the other" to a TTA engine to detune it, it'd have the same power as a GN engine, c'mon! Stock - stock they're NOT the same and don't put out the same power....isn't this obvious???

Differences:
1.) Heads (no HP increase per you, I disagree)
2.) Headers (no HP increase per you, I disagree)
3.) FP regulator (no HP increase per you, I disagree)
4.) Exhaust system (no HP increase per you, I disagree)
5.) ECM (no HP increase per you, I disagree)
6.) Chip (no HP increase per you, I disagree)
7.) Crank - better lubrication
8.) Pistons - Necessary to maintain CR
9.) Intercooler (no HP increase per you, I disagree)
10.) Reprogrammed transmission
11.) 3 Lbs. more boost - agreed HP increase

I suppose none of this matters and PAS wasted their time with everything but shortening the wastegate rod.

If you transplanted a complete TTA drivetrain, intercooler and wiring harness into a GN it'd run mid-low 13's all day.

 

[TurboJunky]

Originally posted by BM Computer Src
Who's GN only put out 13.5 lbs stock??? Come on!! If yours was only pushing that much you should have had it checked!!

15 psi is Stock for a GN...

Nope. It's supposed to peak at 15 psi then come back down to 14.5 psi. It's documented and my 800 mile GN does just that which is still 100% original.

 

[TurboJunky]

Originally posted by 86brick
Wow you TTA guys sound a lot like the Supra boys!!!

The '89 TTA is God's chariot

For the love....

Sounds like some people have a sore spot for the truth. Remember, you're talking to a couple of guys who currently own BOTH cars. The GN has advantages in some areas but not others. The TTA is a performance monster out of the box, the GN is not.

Which is my favorite car??.....the GN. I'll never sell it but I call it as I see it. Most of you guys have NEVER driven let alone ridden in a TTA thus have NO experience in even talking about this. Most comments here are nothing more than guesses, theories and bench racing.

When you either dyno a stock TTA vs. a GN or driven both the talk I hear is just that....

 

[TurboJunky]

Re: gn and tta

Originally posted by junkyard t
Only different between the 2 was the tta had a higher boost chip 16# compare to 14 GN. Also the tta had 16 inch rims with wider tires than the 15 inch 215x65. same engine.

You need to do some research on this before stating such nonsense.

 

[TurboJunky]

Originally posted by TTA89
For anyone interested, here are some pics of my Champion Ported TTA heads.

Heads from Gods Chariot

As you can see they look nothing like the buick heads.


I have a friend with a S2 TTA as well as a 9000 mile TTA, He had to replace the tires due to dry rot. The car is factory stock otherwise. He raced it last week and went 13.3@104mph. I will give him a call tomorrow and see if he will take it and get it dyno'd for us.

If I get a chance to dyno my 100% stock GN when I can and lay this to rest. Anyone else here got a completely factory original GN they can dyno?

In fact, when's the last time anyone's ridden in a completely original GN, tires, cat and all? It's a slug in factory form and mine runs in tip-top shape. I think most of the GN comments here are from people who have never been in an originally configured TR and are too used to the performance of their modded TR's. So far I've seen two people here speak from ACTUAL EXPERIENCE. Everyone else is giving unsubstantiated opinions - end of story.

 

[86brick]

Originally posted by TT/A1233
For the love....

Sounds like some people have a sore spot for the truth. Remember, you're talking to a couple of guys who currently own BOTH cars. The GN has advantages in some areas but not others. The TTA is a performance monster out of the box, the GN is not.

Which is my favorite car??.....the GN. I'll never sell it but I call it as I see it. Most of you guys have NEVER driven let alone ridden in a TTA thus have NO experience in even talking about this. Most comments here are nothing more than guesses, theories and bench racing.

When you either dyno a stock TTA vs. a GN or driven both the talk I hear is just that....

You're right I have never driven or ridden in God's chariot, but keep in mind I'm only interested in straight line performance meaning I could give a damn about how well God's chariot handles and I don't care about how fast my car is when it was stock compared to the all mighty chariot you guys call TTA! Believe it or not I wanted God's chariot, but when I was looking none of them were in my price range and I didn't like the fact that they were T-top cars (not many hardtop cars made).... I'm not really worried about how fast either of these cars were from the factory because I see no point in leaving either one of them stock and to tell you the truth one of these days I will be buying God's chariot to have parked next to my humble Turbo-T! Maybe then I can have the huge amount of experience like yourself....

BTW, I like how Mike (TTA89) posted the pics of Champion ported heads from God's chariot....

 

[TTA89]

Originally posted by 86brick



BTW, I like how Mike (TTA89) posted the pics of Champion ported heads from God's chariot....

Now if I can just get the motor back and in the car I'll be out racing instead of bench racing on the net

 

[TurboDiverArt]

Punching out

I think I'm punching out of this thread, it's getting a little heated. I've owned my one GN since new and I really never thought it was a slug. I've never been in a TTA but would love to drive in one someday. I think we are all passionate about our rides. Remember, we all love Buick powered performance!

 

[Hyper]

Re: Punching out

Originally posted by TurboDiverArt
I think I'm punching out of this thread, it's getting a little heated. I've owned my one GN since new and I really never thought it was a slug. I've never been in a TTA but would love to drive in one someday. I think we are all passionate about our rides. Remember, we all love Buick powered performance!

You know I have owned mine since new to and I never thought of it as being a slug, I thought it was about the quickest production car of the 80's, But that must just be what I was reading in Hot Rod mag. They said it was the quickest car of the 80's. I remember when I first got it that I was very happy with the way it would lite the goodyears up in the top of first gear. I also remember it only running 13 lbs of boost, maybe my car wasn't set as high as some. I have always like the TTA, which I wish I had one to keep but I dont so I just have to look at them at the car shows now. I also want a syclone, I believe they are faster than a TTA. I know it is a chevy but it is very cool truck!!!. Well I will sign off now and await this dyno shoot out between the GN and the TTA to see who wins and maybe this will end all of it. It really doesn't matter which was faster back then though, Think about the fastest one today is the GN, wonder why no one wants to make a TTA run in the 7's? Maybe god is saving them for his rides?, but I really think god would really like to drive the GN because it has much more room in it and you dont sit on the floor. I guess the GN will always be the "Black" sheep of the family and that the "good Guys" always where white.

 

[jmidolo]

Originally posted by GNSCOTT
Oh and TT, you forgot 3#'s of boost along with 200 lbs and aerodynamics. Like mentioned before each # of boost is 10hp so there is 30hp, and each extra 100#'s of weight is a tenth, so there is a half second right there, then add in at least a tenth for aerodynamics and there is 6-10ths, and I beleive the difference in the twos performance. I think 1 full second difference is stretching it. again JMHO

I haven't gotten to the end of this thread yet so forgive me if someone already stated this...you keep throwing out the extra few pounds of boost, but what about the smaller compression ratio on a TTA? The GNs had 8:5:1? TTAs were 7:5:1 I believe to make up for the smaller combustion chamber in the heads..so you have to take that into account also.

Having owned both a TTA and 3Gns and 2 Ttypes, I'll go on record as saying the TTA WAS indeed faster when stock vs. all my TRs...why it was faster, a pound or 2 more boost, dif chip calibration, different IC, more fuel..sure..all of the above. Same motor basically, tuned differently, more power.

The only way to resolve this is to take a stock TTA motor and drop in in a G body and run it to get the numbers

 

[BuickPower3800]

This is getting a little heated. Lets remember that the GN and TTA are both awesome cars, powered by a turbocharged 3.8 that never ceases to amaze!!!

 

[motorhead]

Originally posted by BuickPower3800
This is getting a little heated. Lets remember that the GN and TTA are both awesome cars, powered by a turbocharged 3.8 that never ceases to amaze!!!

So?! At least it is getting the misinformation problem fixed!

Plain and simple: Stock vs. Stock the TTA is faster.

There WERE improvements to the LC2 and it shows.
You can't deny it. If you do, you're a fool.
And why wouldn't there be? The engine was 2 years older, had 3 years of aftermarket tuning in it, something had to improve, right?

Let it be at that.

Oh FWIW, my Turbo T @ 20psi on propane is only running mid-13s @ 103.Xmph. These are stock GNX and TTA numbers, and I had to do a lot of simple bolt-ons to get it here. There is something to be said for the pump gas numbers the TTA and the GNX put down, there were clearly improvements.

Granted, my car can't get a 60' below 2.0 to save its life.

 

[TTA89]

Originally posted by jmidolo
I haven't gotten to the end of this thread yet so forgive me if someone already stated this...you keep throwing out the extra few pounds of boost, but what about the smaller compression ratio on a TTA? The GNs had 8:5:1? TTAs were 7:5:1 I believe to make up for the smaller combustion chamber in the heads..so you have to take that into account also.

Having owned both a TTA and 3Gns and 2 Ttypes, I'll go on record as saying the TTA WAS indeed faster when stock vs. all my TRs...why it was faster, a pound or 2 more boost, dif chip calibration, different IC, more fuel..sure..all of the above. Same motor basically, tuned differently, more power.

The only way to resolve this is to take a stock TTA motor and drop in in a G body and run it to get the numbers

For someone owning a TTA and GN you sure are mis-informed as well.

The GN and TTA have the same compression ratio which I think is a little higher than 8:1. The TTA heads have a smaller chamber and needed TTA specific pistons to bring the compression back down to 8:1.

 

[jmidolo]

HAha, biatch...yea, it was before my morning coffee, dif pistons to make up for the dif combus. chamber..I did know that..after all this f'in rain for 2 wks, I'm walking around sleeping!! LOL

 

[RareTA]

Here's my real world experience, I have had both and love both.My TTA bone stock with BFG Z rated Comp TA's ran 13.1 at like 101-102, thats completely stock.My 87 WE4, you know the lightweight GN:~) with the boost cranked up to 16+ lbs and a Thrasher 92 chip ran low 14's.My WE4 had some miles on it but the boost was the same as the TTA and had the Thrasher chip and it was not even close to the stock TTA.The WE4 also needed drag radials to hook at all with the non posi 3.42 rear, and it did hook with the DR's.Stock to stock even with the same boost there not very close.With very basic simple mods the TTA is running low 12's almost 11's now(soon).I love both these cars, the WE4 is a great comfortable daily driver and was alot of fun to drive.It still handled decent and braked pretty good,just thought I would share my experience.

The rear disc brakes on the TTA will hold alot of boost with no mods......
The WE4 had the stock fuel pressure reg, no knock at 16lbs with a little additive......

I have been here awhile and have more than 4 posts, did the post counts get changed/reset at some time?

 

[TurboJunky]

Stock TTA runs 12.99!

Here's posts from the TTA list and were made yesterday. This gentleman ran 12.99 on a completely stock original TTA:

Speaking of

Ran 12.9 @ 104.13 on Friday with the TTA,
brrrr it was cold saw 39 degrees on the MAT.


Ivan



about 17 lbs., its stock except aftermarket tires (bridgestone potenza's )

No boost at launch , it was still in Vacuum
that was about 2000 RPM launch ,

It was cold on Friday nite ! I ran 3 times 13.2, 13.1 , 12.99

so what does it take to get a TTA to run 12's ?

I guess tires, ohh as Mike pointed out it did have the turbo sucker blocked.

Guess im cheating, i'll have to take it back to the track again and unblock the turbo sucker and see what happens, DARN another track visit!.


Ivan


yeah James, this car is 100 % factory , I put it back to stock to take the emissions test, it passed and i havent done anything to it
since except plug the turbo sucker, and the bridgestone tires, i borrowed the tires off my other car as the stock Gatorbacks are pretty much useless. That was on 93 shell, it has a 237 on it so no adj FP, it does have a replacement DELCO O2 sensor as I changed that after i didnt pass emissions the first time, other than that, its all stock has a stock type paper element air filter, Cam sensor hasnt been touched, and the TPS was reset.

Other than the turbo sucker plug, there isnt anything done to it, the tires help good as I managed a 2.0 60 ' and it was cold on Friday nite . That was thru the stock exhaust which is all 100 % original. I think the ET all came from the tires as with the stock
Gatorbacks it ran 13.5 with a terrrible 60 '

whats interesting is that a chip and race gas and open exhaust and all the little BS is worth about 70 hp, thats really easy to get.

 

[sr71gn]

tt/a1233-

what is the point of your argument? is it that a tta motor by itself makes more horsepower than a gn motor?

 

[TurboJunky]

This is a debate and a civil one at that. I have several contentions that have been refuted here.

1.) The TTA motor isn't a GN motor with 2 more lbs. of boost. It's a total performance package with many differences to acheive the increased power over the original LC2.
2.) You can't take a GN motor, add 2 lbs. boost and expect TTA LC2 performance - not gonna happen.

Anyone who's worked on these cars/engines knows there isn't "one simple trick" or 2 lbs of boost to get 30-40hp. To do it right one needs to complete upgrades as a package or sequence.

Just found an error. Stock GN's run 14.5lbs boost whereas TTAs run 16.5, a difference of only 2 lbs and NOT 3 which has been stated over and over in here in error.

 

[salvageV6]

Yup, you need to crush your stock fuel regulator in a vice, make an adjustable wastegate, and get a Kenne-Bell 9006 chip to get that 40 horsepower.

Then again you don't need a TTA block and heads either.

 

[Lee_Burough]

Lets turn the tables on you....A counterproposal

If you (Those good friends posting here who assert the GN engine is the SAME as the TTA engine) would have suggested putting a stock GN engine block in the place of the stock TTA block in my TTA....Well, that would be a different story

I think that bolting a stock GN engine in my TTA (leaving the increased cooling, better brakes, intercooler, 237, stainless headers, exhaust, electronics, turbo and every other thing that Pontiac "refined" between 87 and 89) would make your case a lot better.

Then, the only significant difference that will stand, is the slight increase in the TTA heads that might handicap the GN engine to just a couple percent less output than the stock TTA output.

I'll give you that much without losing any dignity

LC2 forever