EGR elimination

[rodman99999]

Hi Guys- Is there any down-side to getting rid of the EGR on a Turbo Regal? I used to do it all the time on my V8's, but(of course) they weren't computerized. Right now I have a K/B "Ultimate" chip, if that matters. No emissions tests where I live.

 

[Jbenn911]

From what I undestand, if your chip isnt programmed to not use it, you stand a good chance of getting part throttle knock. I experienced that until I got a TT chip from Eric..HTH

 

[Ormand]

It doesn't hurt anything when it's working, so the "downside" is that you have to spend some time/money fixing something that ain't broke. EGR goes away under full throttle, so it has no effect on full power ops. The only thing that it does is to give some unwelcome humps and bumps in the intake, so if you get the intake and heads ported, that would be the time to grind off the bumps, and get rid of the EGR. But if it isn't working, or is leaking, it may be easier/cheaper to block it off than to fix it, and that won't hurt anything except raising the NOX emissions, and exposing you to the wrath of tree huggers.

 

[rodman99999]

The tree huggers are driving the cost of our go-juice up by not letting us drill in Alaska and off shore(both coasts). Anything I can do to rain on their parade would be worth it!! But, like you said(basically): If it ain't broke- don't fix it. Guess I'll wait 'til I move up to my porting, 60's and chip. Thanx for getting back!

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by Ormand
EGR goes away under full throttle, so it has no effect on full power ops. .

Only if you ignore the fact, that when the EGR was on, it helped to heat the intake manifold, and the over time the spring can weaken, and allow it to leak at high backpressure levels.

 

[boost86]

Originally posted by bruce
Only if you ignore the fact, that when the EGR was on, it helped to heat the intake manifold, and the over time the spring can weaken, and allow it to leak at high backpressure levels.

so bruce do you think it worth getting rid of the egr or keeping it?

 

[Maltman]

If we block off the egr with a plate, what do we do with the solenoid? Will we have to keep it plugged in to avoid throwing codes, or can we just disconnect it all and be without any problems concerning the ecm?

I have a chip that doesn't use the egr (not to mention the rjc plate blocks off the egr port)...but i'm not sure about this topic.

...sorry to bump in on this post, but it is related

 

[Jbenn911]

Eric told me to leave it connected, just block off the vacuum line...so far so good

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by boost86
so bruce do you think it worth getting rid of the egr or keeping it?

Reading thur this might better answer your question. I got called away before finishing my last reply, sorry about that.

http://www.t6p.com/forums/showthread.php?t=686

 

[Ormand]

Only if you ignore the fact, that when the EGR was on, it helped to heat the intake manifold

That's true, and the hood ornament hurts aerodynamics, too, as do the windshield wipers. But since we're talking about CRUISE, we're talking about very low total flow rates, and the exhaust gas is a small fraction of the total. Not a real significant heat input, it would appear. Bruces' other point, about problems which appear with wear and with time, is certainly a good one, and one to consider if you'r thinking of removing extra "stuff" from the engine. And only if you're willing to deal with angry tree-huggers.

 

[Maltman]

LOL....I'm marrying one of those "tree huggers"

Good thing she doesn't know much about cars...nor does she ever ask about the car...in fact, she hates it because it is loud and gives her headaches, so she'll rarely go for a ride in it.

Back to the egr bit though....if our chip doesn't have the egr signal programmed in, do we have to worry about have the solenoid plugged in?

 

[Jbenn911]

Yes...I unplugged mine after I installed my turbotweak chip and the code popped..was easy enough to leave it in and block off the vac. line

 

[WarpSpeed]

Also, located in the egr solenoid is a little filter that can become clogged over time, like 15 years, and make the egr valve lazy to close when going to WOT, sometimes.

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by Ormand
That's true, and the hood ornament hurts aerodynamics, too, as do the windshield wipers. But since we're talking about CRUISE, we're talking about very low total flow rates, and the exhaust gas is a small fraction of the total. Not a real significant heat input, it would appear. Bruces' other point, about problems which appear with wear and with time, is certainly a good one, and one to consider if you'r thinking of removing extra "stuff" from the engine. And only if you're willing to deal with angry tree-huggers.

You might look over at some of the Syclone sites, where they've documented what happens, EGR off, and EGR on. Or even install a plenum mounted temp sensor, and see for yourself what's going on. Since you had to make the hood ornament, and WW comment, I'll reply with, have you done ANY testing with a temp guage mounted in the plenum, or are you just typing away without, any first hand experience, about the matter at hand?.

While the EGR supposedly goes inop., at high flows, the manifold is still hotter then what it would have been then if the EGR had been off.

BTW, I mentioned the Syclones, since they in oem form had a (true) MAT, and years ago went thru all this. Not to mention the Syclone code which is just a few years later then the GN, takes complete advantage of correcting the timing and fuel according to the *MATs*.

 

[Ormand]

I did not "type away, without any first hand experience". Two engineering degrees and thirty five years of experience qualify me to make an "educated" comment. These things also qualify me to UNDERSTAND what's going on, not just to quote from my own posts on other web sites. No doubt that the EGR will raise the temp of the gas in the intake manifold. But at cruise, the flow rates are low. My previous post mentioned HEAT, which is not the same as temperature. The quantity of HEAT added to the intake manifold is small, and the quantity of HEAT which the intake will transfer back to the flowing gas during WOT is similarly small. For those with a Scanmaster, if you watch the air flow, you will see something like 20 to 30 gm/sec at cruise. This compares to 250 to 300, or more at WOT. So, the small amount of HEAT that is added to/stored in the intake manifold is then transferred back to the flowing air, but when the air flow is much higher than at cruise. Since the intake manifold is not designed as a heat exchanger, the heat will not be added quickly, and there will be only a small rise in the temperature of the air reaching the cylinders. I suppose my original comment should have been that EGR has no SIGNIFICANT effect on WOT performance.

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by Ormand
I did not "type away, without any first hand experience". Two engineering degrees and thirty five years of experience qualify me to make an "educated" comment.

I suppose my original comment should have been that EGR has no SIGNIFICANT effect on WOT performance.

So, do you really have 2 degrees?.
Can you say that again, please?.
It seems your really enjoy beating that into the ground.

Using the word *significant* is a wonderful way of saying, well I really don't know so I'll just drop things back a cog to cover up what I said.

Ya, just ignore the fact that in cruise the EGTs are over 800dF, and that 800dF really isn't that *hot*. Not to mention there's can be a little problem with tip-in preignition, from the increase air temps.. For those that missed it search for abnormal combustion, it's worth reading. BTW, it was written by a guy with a degree, that actually worked in the field.

 

[rodman99999]

You say, "abnormal" like it's a bad thing!

For those that missed it search for abnormal combustion, it's worth reading. BTW, it was written by a guy with a degree, that actually worked in the field.[/QUOTE]
Hey Bruce- I tried to find this thread(used the search), and couldn't come up with any matches. Any further clues to it's location? Thanx

 

[bruce]

For those that missed it search for abnormal combustion, it's worth reading. BTW, it was written by a guy with a degree, that actually worked in the field.

Hey Bruce- I tried to find this thread(used the search), and couldn't come up with any matches. Any further clues to it's location? Thanx [/QUOTE]

Here ya go.

http://www.streetrodstuff.com/Articles/Engine/Detonation/index.php

 

[rodman99999]

Figures:

No wonder I couldn't find it! I was looking in here. Thanx again!