Emissions and injectors

[MSDGN]

I have to do emissions in a month or so here in AZ...IM 147...I currently have TE-62...V2 front mount..206/206 cam...MSD 50's...I will be putting on a cat and using an emissions chip for 50's...so
I should pass but several guys here have tried to pass with 50's and failed so if this happens can I slap in my old stock injectors with the stock recall chip and try that way...I know I will have to watch the boost so I will turn it WAY!! down...but will the car run OK with those injectors and my setup...

 

[sixgun86gn]

Look at the sig.Passed with flying colors w/o EGR function too.And had 28x11.50 ET streets on the back also.

 

[TurboDave]

Originally posted by sixgun86gn
Look at the sig.Passed with flying colors w/o EGR function too.And had 28x11.50 ET streets on the back also.

In Texas. Notice the originator of the question is in AZ

 

[TurboDave]

Originally posted by MSDGN
I have to do emissions in a month or so here in AZ...IM 147...I currently have TE-62...V2 front mount..206/206 cam...MSD 50's...I will be putting on a cat and using an emissions chip for 50's...so
I should pass but several guys here have tried to pass with 50's and failed so if this happens can I slap in my old stock injectors with the stock recall chip and try that way...I know I will have to watch the boost so I will turn it WAY!! down...but will the car run OK with those injectors and my setup...

With a good emissions chip for the 50's (Not at all hard to make) you should get through OK.

I was able to get my 86 through Southern CA emissions with the 50's.
Don't know exactly how CA and AZ emissions test and standards differ though. Could AZ be have tighter limits than CA? Good lord I hope not. I'm hearing noises from my wife that she wants to look at AZ (Mesa or Pheonix) as a place to get away from the cold

 

[Reaper]

i have a killer emissions chip but its for blue tops scott. i have to go in a month also. last year i passes with out any tricks just a chip let me know we'll swap injectors one saturday.



Dathan

 

[MSDGN]

Thanks for the info guys...like I said I should be able to pass with the 50's...cat...emissions chip but if I don't I need a backup plan so back to my original question...can I run stock injectors with my setup if I watch the boost...

 

[gofstbuick]

Since the test type is IM 147, I'll assume the car is placed on a dyno and accelerated to speed, and all this time the exhaust is sampled (assuming the technician stays within the drive trace). So my question is from 0 mph, how fast is the car accelerated and to what speed? This will provide an idea as to what emissions control devises will be active. On a general assumption, the EGR should function and you shouldn't even attempt a smog check without a good cat. Also, the O2 sensor should be in good shape. Like CA, AZ air quality problems probably concentrates on HC and NOx and CO is in attainment. But your state does not require a CA specific prom. The federal proms had less EGR than the CA prom. But it shouldn't really matter. I realize you're running 50s and part of the above is just an assessment of the factory proms with factory injectors.

 

[blackbuick87]

If you dont have a heavy duty actuator and can turn the boost below 12 psi you should be ok to run the stock injectors.

You could take the wastegate rod off, but on a rolling dyno I dont know how that would effect emissions.

An old set of stock injectors probably wont do any better than a new set of 50's though

 

[MSDGN]

I don't know...it's strange...several here have failed with 50's...they put blue tops in and pass??...not sure why...

 

[matt87]

i've passed the im-240 here in RI with msd 50's, champion irons with no egr valve, v2 front mount and a bigger turbo. i have a 3" cat i put on for tests. make sure the car is good and hot, lean it out a little, but not drastic, like 38 psi vacum line off. toss in some good gas 93 octane is fine and some emission helping product if you can find it. i used a jay caret street 93 octane chip. MAKE SURE TO CHANGE OIL THE DAY OF TEST AND PUT NEW SPARK PLUGS! very important to do that!

 

[TurboDave]

Originally posted by MSDGN
I don't know...it's strange...several here have failed with 50's...they put blue tops in and pass??...not sure why...

Could be any one of a number of reasons that we really don't know the answer to:

The chip of course has a lot to do with it. Calling a smog chip a "smog chip" is all relative depending on who made it.

What smog equipment was hooked up?

What smog equipment was actually working?

What was the state of tune?

O2 sensor in good working order?

etc. etc. etc.

 

[sixgun86gn]

We do the Dyno testing in Texas now.I don't see why it would be any different.Dallas is a high emmissions area so they have tightened up on us.What did you think,I had some hayseed do it in his barn?And youre going to help from wisconsin?

 

[azgn]

Scott, I'll be glad to rent you my PO Box in Pinetop

 

[TurboJim]

Originally posted by gofstbuick
The federal proms had less EGR than the CA prom. But it shouldn't really matter. I realize you're running 50s and part of the above is just an assessment of the factory proms with factory injectors.

I dont know what birdie told you that, but thats not true.

Proms:
ATH PromID 7464 Part#: 16057583
DRL PromID 3394 Part#: 16051877
ACXA Prom ID 0144 Part#: 16070940
BBKJ PromID 8704 Part#: 16178707

Were all for federal AND California emissions. Thats all the proms from 1985-1992 for the Buick 3.8SFI-T

My ca passed the ASM 5015 test with a good chip and no cat. As Dave said, theres no reason a car runing proiperly wont pass.

Dont lean the car out, you'll raise HC and NOX. Dont fatten it up, you'll raise CO. Let the ECM do its thing the way the engineers designed it to and you *should* be OK.

 

[TurboJim]

Originally posted by matt87
i've passed the im-240 here in RI with msd 50's, champion irons with no egr valve,

GOt a cam with a lot of overlap, or longer exh duration? Otherwise I dont believe you on the NOx part. I ran a guys car on the dyno here in a steady state test (15% inertial load for 50 secs) and the car blew like 1800ppm NOx, cutpoint was like 700. (Whatever it lists on my webpage, I forget now, theyre ALL different depending on engine size and vehicle weight)

lean it out a little, but not drastic, like 38 psi vacum line off. toss in some good gas 93 octane is fine and some emission helping product if you can find it. i used a jay caret street 93 octane chip. MAKE SURE TO CHANGE OIL THE DAY OF TEST AND PUT NEW SPARK PLUGS! very important to do that!

How do you lean something out when the ECM will richen it back up?

As for spark plugs, if Co is low, but HC is high try opening the gap up a bit. (Maybe to .038-.040) A larger gap will light off a leaner mixture easier.

 

[TurboDave]

Originally posted by sixgun86gn
We do the Dyno testing in Texas now.I don't see why it would be any different.Dallas is a high emmissions area so they have tightened up on us.What did you think,I had some hayseed do it in his barn?And youre going to help from wisconsin?

Since you haven't been on the board long enough to know me, you also probably don't know that I just left CA. Lived out there in San Diego over 12 years.
End of discussion.

 

[TurboDave]

Originally posted by TurboJim
GOt a cam with a lot of overlap, or longer exh duration? Otherwise I dont believe you on the NOx part. I ran a guys car on the dyno here in a steady state test (15% inertial load for 50 secs) and the car blew like 1800ppm NOx, cutpoint was like 700. (Whatever it lists on my webpage, I forget now, theyre ALL different depending on engine size and vehicle weight)


How do you lean something out when the ECM will richen it back up?

As for spark plugs, if Co is low, but HC is high try opening the gap up a bit. (Maybe to .038-.040) A larger gap will light off a leaner mixture easier.

Jim, I think you and I are fighting a lossing battle here (and all these related smog threads). Seems to be a lot of "new" expertise about what will pass emissions tests. I've heard some pretty radical claims the last several months! But not a single verification with data, etc.

Raising fuel pressure, lowering fuel pressure, blah blah blah. Ya sure, that'll make it run cleaner

matt87's was about the most radical I've heard. Maybe he did, maybe not, but without a real radical cam, I can't figure out how anybody got through an IM240 without EGR.
It's not the front mount, bigger turbo, or bigger injectors that are of any concern, they're easy to get through, it's the non functioning EGR that I have to question.

 

[matt87]

guys i bull**** you not. i shouldve mentioned it was the second car in sig with stock cam. the other car with a cam passed also in nov 00 but that had a stock cam back then also. i shouldve also mentioned both cars failed the first time around. i tokk the car up to Cottons and tested the coil packs, changed pluga and oil, lowered fp a little and added "gaurented to pass" and both cars passed. i wish i had a scanner so i could show the failing tests and passing tests. here what happened. ist test: failed HC PPM IDLE: reading 392, limit 220. retest reading 69, limit 220. i can post the other items tested if interested. i have yet to retest the cam car since 2000 its a two year tag and its up. the other stock cam car is up for retest end of next month.

 

[TurboDave]

Originally posted by matt87
guys i bull**** you not. i shouldve mentioned it was the second car in sig with stock cam. the other car with a cam passed also in nov 00 but that had a stock cam back then also. i shouldve also mentioned both cars failed the first time around. i tokk the car up to Cottons and tested the coil packs, changed pluga and oil, lowered fp a little and added "gaurented to pass" and both cars passed. i wish i had a scanner so i could show the failing tests and passing tests. here what happened. ist test: failed HC PPM IDLE: reading 392, limit 220. retest reading 69, limit 220. i can post the other items tested if interested. i have yet to retest the cam car since 2000 its a two year tag and its up. the other stock cam car is up for retest end of next month.

I'd be more interested in the NOX limits that are allowed and what the car/s blew for NOX? The EGR has a much greater affect on that parameter that do the others, and it's easy to get the HC's down to the limit you hit (with good equipment, and good smog chip, and good tuneup) with the engine equiped as you have, especially using G2P, that stuff works great.

Thanks.

 

[bruce]

Dropping the F/P will have no effect at steady state emissions unless you go further then the BL limits.
It will cut down on the AE, or pump shot quantity.

Cams have everything to do with NOX emissions. Increase the overlap and you decrease the amount of EGR valve useage you need. Not too hard to get to where you balance things out. But best mixture might no longer be at stoich., and then you can run into CO problems. Not to mention you can't or shouldn't run as much timing with a none EGR valved car.

I've seen a number of IM 240 strip recordings, and amazing how much they can vary and still be considered the same test. Hard to beleive some of the testers are such poor drivers. Well in some cases maybe not.