Ethanol/Saab turbos/same principle as alky?

[GNJimC]

I am fairly new to the TR world. Owned an 85 quite a few years ago and now I have an 84 GN. I am not looking to add alky to it but just looking for general alky related answers related to Ethanol.

If I understand correctly, the methanol is injected into the fuel system to increase octane and reduce knock at higher boost thus adding HP and torque Correct? Also, I understand E85 CAN NOT be used in place of methanol for this because the petroleum (15%) and the damage this would do to the alky injection system correct?

The reason I brought up Saab, is that they have the same principle as alky injection in 2 of their new cars. They are not available in the US as of yet (demand is huge in Europe for flex fuel cars) Here is a quote from their site: “the turbocharged flexi-fuel engine allows the use of a higher boost pressure and more advanced ignition timing - giving more engine power - than is possible on petrol without risk of harmful 'knocking' or pre-detonation.”

Here is a link to the whole page: Saab flexi fuel engine with a trionic engine management system

It looks as if the engine automatically changes the boost and timing when it knows ethanol is in the fuel tank. By doing so they are adding 30 more HP and 16% more torque! Pretty cool and it is because of the Turbo!

Now, why the heck can’t GM bring that technology to the US. Maybe resurrect the 3.8 turbo and make it ethanol compatible!

 

[Razor]

Well see the alcohol is not injected into the fuel. The alcohol is injected into the incoming AIR that has been heated by the turbo. And tuning of an injection system requires recalibrating the injector duty cycle parameters.. on a GN.. easy.. Chip replacement.

The technology of the fuel-type sensor is available already. Even my FAST engine management now has provisions for this. The cost of the sensing technology is whats expensive. In that to detect the presence of alcohol in the fuel. When alcohol is present, then the injectors are commanded to open up, since you need more alcohol than fuel to make the same amount of power. This is what flex fuel vehicles do.. detect the alky in the lines.. then reconfigure the ecm accordingly.

Resurrect the 3.8.. never going to happen.. nice dream.. if anything it will be a POS FWD 4 cyl something.

 

[GNJimC]

Thanks Razor.

Just to clarify. The fuel sensor units will detect if there is alky in the fuel. In flex fuel cars this would be ethanol. BUT just because this was added, as an example to a TR, that does not make the car flex fuel due to the fact that the rest of the fuel system is not compatible (ethanol is very corrosive).

Next question, is there anyway possible to do somthing to the fuel management system or through a turbo to increase the economy of a flex fuel vehicle? There is about a 30% reduction in fuel mileage in flex fuel cars therefore the price of e85 needs to be at least 30% cheaper, wich is not always the case. I am not looking to make my TR flex fuel but just a general automotive question. Maybee that is as big of a dream as the 3.8 SFI turbo being resurected by GM. Nice dream though.

Thanks again

 

[Razor]

True, a flex fuel vehicle has the whole fuel system designed around the alcohol. Even the fuel filter is stainless and the glues used inside it are special to resist the alcohol breaking down the adhesives.

Sorry on the needing more fuel to accomplish the same thing.. it is what it is.

Soon we'll run on water from the tap.. just wait Thats the dream.. water has unlimited octane.

 

[PhilM]

Resurrect the 3.8.. never going to happen.. nice dream.. if anything it will be a POS FWD 4 cyl something.

What's amatter with 4 cylinders! The SB/BB Chebby guys say the same thing about these POS 6 cyl's we're playing with! Technology has new engines going smaller and smaller - Last I checked there are several STOCK cars making well over 200, even 300HP outta the box with both 4 and 6 cylinder engines.

^^^ This 4 cylinder is making over 1400HP!


Phil

 

[Roc87]

That is a strange looking turbo outlet ......

 

[Quiky One]

Looks like a clown horn

 

[Razor]

What's amatter with 4 cylinders! The SB/BB Chebby guys say the same thing about these POS 6 cyl's we're playing with! Technology has new engines going smaller and smaller - Last I checked there are several STOCK cars making well over 200, even 300HP outta the box with both 4 and 6 cylinder engines.

^^^ This 4 cylinder is making over 1400HP!


Phil

Where's the 600 shot of nitrous. I dont see enough injector and turbo to support that power 4 injectors even 160's and heavy methanol injection are pressed to make 1KWHP. I know the Euro record for a 4 cyl has my system on it

 

[PhilM]

This was during mockup... there's another inj rail on the other side not installed. Their 2.2L (135CI !!!) 4cyl EC drag ran somewhere in the 6's... think a 6.4x or so (btw this is a national ET & MPH record for a 4cyl). The drag is easily making over 1300HP with plenty more power to go. Their PC ranger ran a 7.4 I believe before they jumped class. Man, you guys are too picky! Just trying to make a point here.

Phil

 

[GNJimC]

Ethanol Injection.....

Found this interesting article.

MIT Gas Saver: Ethanol Turbocharger

Also this one about the saab that I mentioned. Looks like according to this they get 15% BETTER hi-way milage with ethanol. ???????

Saabnet.com Press: BioPower Flex-Fuel 9-5

Again, these are not really turbo buick related but turbo and alchohol related.

Razor, are what the researchers at MIT doing the same principle as alky injection? They are just using ethanol instead of methanol?

I also had an engineer tell me that it is possible to get better milage using ethanol WITH a turbo vs regular gas with a turbo. I stll cant belive that since the BTU's are so much lower.

 

[PhilM]

Idk if this was addressed to Razor only, but I suppose I'll throw my thoughts in anyways:

The increase in fuel economy isn't exactly true. What is true is the point of running a smaller engine at higher boosts to acheive the same power as a higher displacement gasoline (only) engine that has a limit to the amount of power based on NA or even if it's turbo'd, which could provide OAL increased fuel economy. Also, the ECU is programmed differently too, to run ethanol. To get more power you can also utilize the stability and cooling effectiveness by adjusting timing. And in the article, they claim a 15% at cruizing speeds over the city driving of ethanol... this statement is a bit unclear, but it seems their comparison isn't a 15% increase over running gasoline or something.

The other 'snitch' is that CAFE only accounts the fuel economy of gasoline that is in the E85 mix (which is 15%), therefore, the ultimate increase in economy that the govmt cares about is huge. The consumer is the one who has to 'pay' for the fuel though, so unless the E85 is purchased for cheaper than the gasoline, it will be more costly to fuel the car over the same distance.

What MIT is doing is the same, just for production to get a REALLY small engine to get acceptable performance. The great thing about turbocharging is that the fueling curves can be very thin for no load conditions (a majority of the time you are driving). My personal Buick gets appx 15mpg city (with 3spd btw), and I still haven't tweaked the fuel maps for low load economy! Also, a high displacement engine's minimal fuel requirement is obviously higher than a similarly designed one of lesser displacement. It's like driving a BBC around all the time... you only stomp on it a few minutes out of an hour or 2 of driving... the idle and cruize fuel is still sucked up like crazy to keep the rot assy spinning. BTW I used ethanol for the longest time in my own Buick and still do when I don't feel like going to the track - the settings change slightly.

:smile:
Phil

 

[GNJimC]

CAFE standards from the way I understand them are a joke. IMO probably why there is no incentive for GM,fomoco, dcx, etc to use e85 more efficiently. Most of the flex fuel vehicles are trucks. Under CAFE, they sort of get a MPG boost to thier overall fleet. A suburban that gets 8 MPG on e-85 has a CAFE rating of 30 MPG.

When you were running ethanol was it 85% or a 10% blend. If the former was it too corrosive on your older buick? (I am assuming a TR?)

 

[PhilM]

Ethanol Injection... I do 100% eth and usually a 75-85% Meth/water blend for the street.

Phil