F-body or Nick's radiator, using external coolers

[Dr. Jeckel]

I am going to be replacing my radiator and am on a pretty tight budget so I have a delima. I have the ramchargers dual fans and the stock radiator. As the temps here get warm my radiator just isn't keeping up.
My question is this:
I plan to use external oil and trans coolers so having a radiator with these hook-ups is pointless. I am reading alot about the F-body radiator and wondered how it compares to the cooling of Nick's radiator. The F-body radiator is a 3rd of the price with no shipping and no core charge from autozone, of course I have to spend another $120 for oil and trans coolers, but that still only puts me at about $250.
Can someone give me a reason why I should pay the extra dough and get Nick's?
Thanks, James.

 

[87GN_70GS]

Bottom line: The f-body (AC 20571) scored a 51.5, while Nick's (same as GDI3VX) scored a 75.9, or 47% more cooling capacity than the f-body (with this simple yardstick).
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I've done some research to come up with a simple scheme to rank or rate the numerous radiators. This is a simple, first order, tube-capacity type approach and doesn't consider all the variables (like fin heighth, etc.), but I think it'll get pretty close. One major contributor to cooling efficiency is tube capacity (up to some limit where stacking tubes on top of each other would result in little or no air flow) ignoring other airflow issues like a thick core and high fin count which lead to aerodynamic drag and drive up fan cfm requirements. Heat transfer characteristics of the specific materials were also not considered, as were issues with solder, epoxy, etc. My simple yardstick (index) is simply the total number of tubes, times tube depth (front-to-rear), times a flat/tube factor. This factor (FTR) penalizes smaller (say 3/8") tubes and favors larger (say 1.25") tubes, simply because in a smaller tube, there is less flat area to bond to the fins as opposed to a larger tube where there is more flat area and less area having no useable bonding area due to the ends being curved. In other words, there is more useable flat area on a single 1" tube than there is on two 1/2" tubes. It is calculated by dividing the total flat length by the total tube length. That being said here is my table, ranked by index:

type # tubes tube length" tube-ins FTR index

Griffin 82 1.25 AL 102.5 .95 97.4 $295 univ. summitracing.com
Rac-rad.com 86 1.0 AL 86 .94 80.8 $170 univ. race-pro ebay, racing-radiators.com
Summit 86 1.0 AL 86 .94 80.8 $180 univ. summitracing.com
RonDavis 86 1.0 AL 86 .94 80.8 $219 univ. rondavisradiators.com
RodneyRed 86 1.0 AL 86 .94 80.8 $435 cust. rodneyred.com
AFCO 82 1.0 AL 82 .94 77.1 $170 univ. ebay
Howe 82 1.0 AL 82 .94 77.1 $200 univ. summitracing.com
Radac 82 1.0 AL 82 .94 77.1 $280 univ. www.radac.com
Rac-rad.com 82 1.0 AL 82 .94 77.1 $280 cust. all-pro ebay, racing-radiators.com
BeCool 82 1.0 AL 82 .94 77.1 $290 univ. summitracing.com
PRC 82 1.0 AL 82 .94 77.1 $325 cust. streetrodstuff.com
Griffin 82 1.0 AL 82 .94 77.1 $190 univ. summitracing.com
CAS 80 1.0 AL 80 .94 75.2 $550 cust. chargedair.com
GDI3VX 135 5/8 CB 84.4 .9 75.9 $300 recore only
5HER 225 3/8 CB 84.4 .83 70.0 $350 recore only
5STD 150 1/2 CB 75 .87 65.3 $400 recore only
4HER 180 3/8 CB 67.5 .83 56.0 $300 3R11460, recore only
4STD 120 1/2 CB 60 .87 52.2 1R858
AC20571 39 1-3/8 AL 53.6 .96 51.5 $164 1R2397, 1R953 carparts.com
3HER 135 3/8 CB 50.6 .83 42.0 1R2311
3STD 90 1/2 CB 45 .87 39.1 $137 1R2511 carparts.com
2X2k 90 1/2 CB 45 .87 39.1 1R841

In most cases tranny coolers were not included, and in all cases, both trans and engine oil coolers were not available unless special ordered (more $). Prices quoted are those found with the only consideration given to lowest $ amount.

Notes:

2X2K is the Modine 2-row X2000 core, 1/2" tubes on 3/8" centers. Available as a complete radiator only, Modine 1R841, 2044, 2140, 2141 CB.

3STD is the 3-row standard core (GM, Harrison, Modine, etc.), 1/2" tubes on 9/16" centers (vertically), 30 rows of tubes in a 16-7/8" tall core, 3 tubes per row, Modine 1R2511, GDI 43-3162 copper-brass (CB).

3HER is the 3-row GM High-Efficiency "HE" (or Modine "H", or GDI "VE") core, 3/8" tubes on 1/2" centers, 45 rows, 3 tubes/row, CB.

AC20571 is the AC-Delco 20571 (Transport, Silhouette, Lumina) aluminum (AL) radiator, 1-3/8" tubes, 1 tube/row, also Modine 1R2397, 1R953. GDI 432397, 433918. Same as F-body except don't get the Modine 1R951, only 1-1/8" tubes.

4STD is the standard 4-row, 1/2" tubes on 9/16" centers, 30 rows, 4 tubes/row, CB, like the Modine 1R858 or GDI 43-3858.

4HER is the 4-row GM HE core, CB, available as a recore only.

5STD is the standard 5-row.

5HER is the 5-row GM HE (or GDI "VE") core, CB, recore only.

GDI3VX is the 3-row, big-tube CB Go-Dan "VX" core, 5/8" tubes on 3/8" centers, 3 tubes/row. Also Radac "D" core, also (I think) Micale's and Holm's core.

Griffin is either 1" or 1.25" tubes, 2 tubes/row, AL.

PRC is the streetrodstuff AL rad, 1" tubes on 1/2" centers, 2 tubes/row, AL.

Howe is a AL 1" tube core, 2 tubes/row.

Be-Cool is 1" tubes, 2 tubes/row, AL.

RodneyRed is 1" tubes, 2 tubes/row, AL.

RonDavis is 1" tubes, 2 tubes/row, AL.

Racing-radiators race-pro and Northern are the same.

 

[Dr. Jeckel]

Thanks for the list, I knew it was out there somewhere, but couldn't remember in what post.
So am I reading that the griffin scored a 97.4?
That would be the best choice then, correct?
Or the summit radiator would even be better than Nick's or is there some other factor that I am missing?
Thanks again for the help, James.

 

[Pitbozz]

My f-body radiator with external oil and tranny coolers with a R/C dual fan setup keeps my car nice and cool. And that is in the deep South. It carries a lifetime warranty and I haven't had any complaints with it's performance. Now if the time comes that I end up running a front mount, then the f-body radiator might not be enough to get the job done. But until then I am happy with the f-bod one and the extra change in my pocket.

 

[87GN_70GS]

Yes, the Griffin with 1.25" tubes scored the highest. Make sure you have lots of airflow across that thick coil. Some fan options:

Lincoln Mark VIII
Viper electric
Lightning
RC dual

 

[TurboDave]

Originally posted by 87GN_70GS
Yes, the Griffin with 1.25" tubes scored the highest. Make sure you have lots of airflow across that thick coil. Some fan options:

Lincoln Mark VIII
Viper electric
Lightning
RC dual

I'm glad that you put the caviat in your original post about "not taking into account all the variables" such as fin count etc.

Because I have first hand experience with griffing radiators in our cars.

While they look good on paper, their performance in the real world (street driven T/R's) is dismal to say the least. Far below even the stock GN radiator.
It's primarilly due to the incredibly high fin count. They just don't allow adequate air flow at speeds down below 75-80mph.

 

[420]

I run the F-Body radiator with the dual fans, and I've never had the temp even flinch....

 

[mjs]

I have a 4 core copper radiator with the trans & engine oil coolers but I use a seperate cooler for the transmission alon with a very big jack cotton front mount intercooler and the a/c condender which blows very cold air and I also installed a electric fan assy. from a 99 pontiac grand am which is a dual fan set up and wired it into the factory wiring and on a 90 degree day with the a/c on and driving the car in regular traffic on the street the car would never go above 175 and constant driving without stop and go it gets down to 166 on my guage. You can pickup a set of these fans at a local wrecking yard for about 50-75 dollars and just cut the ends of the brackets off and get 2 "L" shape brackets and mount it upto the factory brackets and then 1 straight bracket on the bottom of the fan shroud in the middle and bolt it to the bottom of the core support. I have never had a car run so cool before and those fans are even quiet and I can feel the air pulling through the grille, front mount, a/c condenser,trans cooler and the radiator, you might want to try these fans, they are great.

 

[Dr. Jeckel]

Well I decided to go with the f-body radiator to see how it does. I think it will work just fine and for the cost and ease of aquiring one, it was great. We don't get to 100 here in amarillo very often and I'm pretty sure the old radiator was just cloggged so this new one should work just fine. After all the reading and numbers on all radiators I have decided that unless you are running a front mount or see extremely high outside temps in traffic while trying to run your a/c, then most of these replacement radiators will work just fine. I realize some work better than others and it all comes at a price. So I chose the lowest priced one and I'll see how it works for the weather around here and my particular application. If it fails to work how I would like then I'll probably go with one of Nick's. But hey, I'm only out $120 and I've blown more than that on a night of dinnner and dancing

 

[87GN_70GS]

They just don't allow adequate air flow at speeds down below 75-80mph.

You have to make sure you have enough fan. The stock fan won't do it. Almost all aftermarket fans have overinflated cfm ratings, except for Spal and Derale, as proven by independant testing by This guy . A good rule of thumb, found by testing, is 100 cfm per amp drawn. If someone advertises a 2500 cfm fan that only draws 10 amps, well that's not gonna happen, not with true cfm anyway, maybe marketing cfm. The Lincoln Mark VIII fan will produce a true 3500+ cfm. It requires 100+ amps on startup and 35+ amps continous to run. It is the most powerful single fan available.

 

[TurboDave]

Originally posted by 87GN_70GS
You have to make sure you have enough fan. The stock fan won't do it.
<snip>

I disagree, at least in the testing I've done. No theories, or "should be's". Just real world stuff.
The Griffin that I tested was installed on my then, still stock IC'd 86 with a perfectly good stock fan. They're just too too close to a nascar racing radiator (design, fin count, etc.)
So we'll just leave it at that. I have what amounts to a clone of the original radiator, with HE tubes, a huge front mount. The front mount necesitated a better fan setup (Ramchargers duals).

 

[Dr. Jeckel]

Well I just got my new F-body radiator installed with an external tranny cooler and I couldn't be happier. Today it is 75 and sunny and at freeway speeds with the A/C on temps never got above 167 and around town stop and go temps stayed around 165, of course with the A/C on the ramcharger fans are going all the time.
With the A/C off temps stayed right at 160-162 on the freeway and never got above 165 in stop and go.
I couldn't be happier since the day before while driving at night in 60 degree weather, temps got up to 175, fans come on at 171 degrees so they were running non stop. During the day, temps would get to 190+ with A/C on, during an 80 degree day and with the A/C off temps stayed in the high 170's to low 180's.
I realize that Nick's radiator cools better than this one, but for my application the f-body radiator works great.
Thanks again for all the input.

 

[ronbuick]

Dr. Jeckel, where did you get your rad. from, let me know particulars, thanks.

Ron

 

[Dr. Jeckel]

Autozone, PN #433918 i believe(1990 chevy camaro iroc z/350). Go ahead and get an aftermarket tranny cooler. They have them for $40 bucks, along with 4-6 feet of extra 5/16" line. It works great...now if I can only get my broke timing chain fixed