FAST b2b vs XFI vs Accel DFI vs BigStuff

[davepl]

My last car had a FAST b2b system, and I'm looking for a new system for a project I'm building. Now that I have the choice to make all over again, things have come a long way since 5 years ago!

I was wondering if someone could run down the major tradeoffs between the various systems out there. I liked the FAST, except for the removal of the Lambda (L) key in the Windows version. It's a pain without it. Oh, and that cursor key input bug that gave me 63 degrees of timing at 12psi and blew up my motor. But sarcasm aside, I'm wondering what's to be gained by switching from the old FAST to XFI, BS3, or DFI (or even the Holley Commander).

Thanks!
- Dave

 

[plumber]

Dave,
the "L" key is back in the later versions of the windows software for your old b2b ecu and it is also in the XFI software too. The XFI software is very much like the past FAST sefi software so you could hit the ground running if you were used to the old C-Com software.

Doug

 

[davepl]

Hey Doug, are you a plumber? I'm a Plummer! But I digress...

The BigStuff3 looks good on paper (particularly being able to control a transmission in the same box), but the software looks pretty sad. Has anyone used it?

 

[LinearX]

In all reality, you're not going to see a huge difference in any of the units. The biggest differentiation among any of them is familiarity with the software.

XFI still uses C-Com, but it's a newer version of the software. It's also has the ability to log several other auxillary inputs, but you have to specify the ranges for each of them. I have dealt with one of the guys at F.A.S.T. on several occasions, and he's been so gracious as to give me his home number so I can ask him questions about a tune up. That, to me, is reason enough to use them. Not to mention that most anyone at a track will have some familiarity with FAST/C-Com where maybe not so much with the others.

Big Stuff 3 is supposed to be pretty slick. I've only seen it on one car yet. There is a guy in New Jersey that is running a twin turboed, solid axle Z06 to somewhere into the mid-8s with it. He raved about it and the support that he got from John Meany, but the product has already been snatched up by MSD so that may affect customer service. I'm not sure how many folks you'd find at the track running BS3, so you finding help from someone at the track might be difficult.

Gen7 DFI has one great thing going for it that I've always liked. If you change one of your sensors (O2, for example), you don't have to get a new calibration from Accel in order for it to work. You can calibrate the ECU from within the software. I'm not sure if this is something that has changed with XFI or not, but that's always been a hang-up of mine when comparing features. Gen7 also has a base tune up builder that is supposed to get the car to the running state so long as you can answer some basic questions about it. I've never used this feature, but would like to know if it really works. If so, that'd be cool from the standpoint that you'd not have to get a base tune from someone else and hope that it's close enough to get the car running.

I'm not sure if the XFI and DFI can read and correct off of two O2 sensors, but I think that BS3 will. Of course, that only matters if you're building twin setup, or wanting to read off of two headers.

It's interesting that I'd run across this post. Two weeks ago I was in Florida and was talking to an AEM rep about different systems, and he had a pretty interesting philosphy. He said that all of the systems are about equal in what they provide, and that there isn't one that is head and shoulder above another in terms of performance. He says to find one that you're comfortable with (software, hardware, etc.), and run with it. One of the things that I would look for is a plug and play option. I think it'd be much easier and cleaner to use a system that already has a prebuilt harness that will connect to whatever it is I'm building. Sometimes it doesn't quite work out that way, but in a lot of cases it will.

Sorry for the blathering. I'll crawl back under my rock now.

 

[bruce]

In all reality, you're not going to see a huge difference in any of the units. The biggest differentiation among any of them is familiarity with the software.

Let's see how much of lightning rod that statement is.....

 

[LinearX]

Let's see how much of lightning rod that statement is.....

I very well may get bitten by that one, but I'd be willing to bet that there is no discernable amount of power to be found going from one system to another. I could be way wrong there, but probably won't bet my paycheck on it.

 

[plumber]

the XFI system uses the same NTK L1H1 type wideband sensor that the previous FAST ecu used but the XFI doesnt require a setup disk for each sensor. so if you kill one you can plug any other of the same type in and it works. The NTK sensor is also more tolerant of leaded fuel than the cheaper Bosch LSU4 type that comes with the bs3 and others. the NTK's last a long time anyway.

Doug

 

[bruce]

I very well may get bitten by that one, but I'd be willing to bet that there is no discernable amount of power to be found going from one system to another. I could be way wrong there, but probably won't bet my paycheck on it.

Once your at WOT, your right, there just a few basics that are called upon. If staging is done with an ignition stutter, there's little else to worry about. But, if you want to get to where the car is more then just an on/off switch then life can get interesting, but it seems like folks are happy with what they're being handed, so there's no motivation for the aftermarkets to step up to the plate, and really work things out for making cars actually fun to drive.

Looking at the AEM stuff, (at least the one editor, I saw), there was hardly anything related to Accleration Enrichment, and that's how you get a car to acclerate.

My turn to find a rock...

 

[LinearX]

Once your at WOT, your right, there just a few basics that are called upon. If staging is done with an ignition stutter, there's little else to worry about. But, if you want to get to where the car is more then just an on/off switch then life can get interesting, but it seems like folks are happy with what they're being handed, so there's no motivation for the aftermarkets to step up to the plate, and really work things out for making cars actually fun to drive.

Looking at the AEM stuff, (at least the one editor, I saw), there was hardly anything related to Accleration Enrichment, and that's how you get a car to acclerate.

My turn to find a rock...

I haven't personally fiddled with anything other than C-Com to any great degree; I've not even seen the AEM stuff. I've read of your exploits with reprogramming the stock computer to very good results. I wish the aftermarket would offer up something like that. You should market that stuff, as I know I'd be interested to see what kind of response you'd get.

It was refreshing for me to hear from the AEM rep, though, that he held all of them on an equal field of play as far as what kind of power one would get out of any of the systems. His response for question of keeping "stock-type" manners is that the aftermarket doesn't have billions of dollars to throw at the ECU to keep the creature comforts that we all enjoy, yet adding the ability to tune to the nth degree at WOT.

There is a trade off between using a reprogrammed stock ECU versus an aftermarket system, and I'm not sure that the aftermarket will ever have enough impetus to close that gap.

 

[InjectConnect]

In all reality, you're not going to see a huge difference in any of the units. The biggest differentiation among any of them is familiarity with the software.

XFI still uses C-Com, but it's a newer version of the software. It's also has the ability to log several other auxillary inputs, but you have to specify the ranges for each of them. I have dealt with one of the guys at F.A.S.T. on several occasions, and he's been so gracious as to give me his home number so I can ask him questions about a tune up. That, to me, is reason enough to use them. Not to mention that most anyone at a track will have some familiarity with FAST/C-Com where maybe not so much with the others.

Big Stuff 3 is supposed to be pretty slick. I've only seen it on one car yet. There is a guy in New Jersey that is running a twin turboed, solid axle Z06 to somewhere into the mid-8s with it. He raved about it and the support that he got from John Meany, but the product has already been snatched up by MSD so that may affect customer service. I'm not sure how many folks you'd find at the track running BS3, so you finding help from someone at the track might be difficult.

Gen7 DFI has one great thing going for it that I've always liked. If you change one of your sensors (O2, for example), you don't have to get a new calibration from Accel in order for it to work. You can calibrate the ECU from within the software. I'm not sure if this is something that has changed with XFI or not, but that's always been a hang-up of mine when comparing features. Gen7 also has a base tune up builder that is supposed to get the car to the running state so long as you can answer some basic questions about it. I've never used this feature, but would like to know if it really works. If so, that'd be cool from the standpoint that you'd not have to get a base tune from someone else and hope that it's close enough to get the car running.

I'm not sure if the XFI and DFI can read and correct off of two O2 sensors, but I think that BS3 will. Of course, that only matters if you're building twin setup, or wanting to read off of two headers.

It's interesting that I'd run across this post. Two weeks ago I was in Florida and was talking to an AEM rep about different systems, and he had a pretty interesting philosphy. He said that all of the systems are about equal in what they provide, and that there isn't one that is head and shoulder above another in terms of performance. He says to find one that you're comfortable with (software, hardware, etc.), and run with it. One of the things that I would look for is a plug and play option. I think it'd be much easier and cleaner to use a system that already has a prebuilt harness that will connect to whatever it is I'm building. Sometimes it doesn't quite work out that way, but in a lot of cases it will.

Sorry for the blathering. I'll crawl back under my rock now.

BigStuff3 did not get "snatched up" by MSD as you say. They made a deal with MSD to sell a base engine mangement system, labeled the Gen 2, so MSD can offer contingencies in the NHRA, etc. and have a system in their lineup.

 

[InjectConnect]

the XFI system uses the same NTK L1H1 type wideband sensor that the previous FAST ecu used but the XFI doesnt require a setup disk for each sensor. so if you kill one you can plug any other of the same type in and it works. The NTK sensor is also more tolerant of leaded fuel than the cheaper Bosch LSU4 type that comes with the bs3 and others. the NTK's last a long time anyway.

Doug

The sensor that BigStuff3 uses is not the same $50 Bosch WBO2 sensor that some hand held units use. It will stand up to leaded race fuel almost as well as the NTK.

 

[plumber]

Perhaps this should be in a new thread but what creature comforts are you looking for in the aftermarket ecu's?

One BS3 user I know told me his sensor gets lazy from running leaded gas and pulls the 02 and runs it in his daily driver to clean it out. I was thinking they use the bosch lsu4 type sensors.

 

[bruce]

Perhaps this should be in a new thread but what creature comforts are you looking for in the aftermarket ecu's?

Have you noticed how many chug, and blow black smoke out on a cold start?.
For the street guys, how about MPG?.

While you can do some fuel learning, spark is a big part of the game. Having a spark self learn that was based on torque rather then theshold detonation would be a nice feature.

Passive, Active traction control.

Civilized launch mode.

None EST rev limiter. For the DIS systems just interupt the coil signal post module, instead of on the EST line.

PE mode, so that you only use the most the engine has to offer, when it's really needed.

Individual cylinder timing, and fuel, for DIS, as well as Distributor.

How about in cylinder pressure sensing (and closed loop optimization)?.
How about torque sensing (and feedback control for both fuel and timing)?.

Then the obvious A/C cut out, TCC control, rad fan, Additional outputs (both PWM, and on/off), additonal temp inputs for oil/fuel, and correction tables.

IMO, the only really clever thing any aftermarket ecm's done lately, was the Gen VII with the Manifold temp sensor. Again, I'm not totally versed in all the aftermarket stuff.

 

[bruce]

You should market that stuff, as I know I'd be interested to see what kind of response you'd get.

While so far it's only in Beta Testing for TBI applications, there probably will be a *reboarded* oem ecm available, in the not too distant future. Hopefully the demand will lead to further ecms being retrofitted with some internal wiring changes to allow for more/better code.

FWIW, I've been running some of the *new code*, in my TBI truck with some rather surprising results. Instead of that *truck* type of sound, and performance, it's really car like now. Also picked up almost 1 MPG in a BBC 3/4t PU, that I'd spend some time on the calibration.

 

[BEATBY6]

http://www.turbomustangs.com/techarticles/ECUarticle.php has good info..

 

[InjectConnect]

Have you noticed how many chug, and blow black smoke out on a cold start?.

None of the aftermarket ECU's we tune, regardless of brand, chug and blow black smoke on a cold start. Those sysmptoms are tuning issues not hardware issues. I don't know where you are that you see this but obviously someone needs to spend more time on their tune.

 

[V6RACER]

Bs3

I have the BS3. I have no experience with after market engine management systems. I installed it and with a few emails and phone calls I got it pretty close. It has a learning feature for cruise up to WOT. At WOT it goes back to the program. It has internal data logging. It has trace function to make changes to your fuel and timing curves. Very fast processor speed for fuel curve changes. So far I like it.

 

[InjectConnect]

Have you noticed how many chug, and blow black smoke out on a cold start?.
For the street guys, how about MPG?.

While you can do some fuel learning, spark is a big part of the game. Having a spark self learn that was based on torque rather then theshold detonation would be a nice feature.

Passive, Active traction control.

Civilized launch mode.

None EST rev limiter. For the DIS systems just interupt the coil signal post module, instead of on the EST line.

PE mode, so that you only use the most the engine has to offer, when it's really needed.

Individual cylinder timing, and fuel, for DIS, as well as Distributor.

How about in cylinder pressure sensing (and closed loop optimization)?.
How about torque sensing (and feedback control for both fuel and timing)?.

Then the obvious A/C cut out, TCC control, rad fan, Additional outputs (both PWM, and on/off), additonal temp inputs for oil/fuel, and correction tables.

IMO, the only really clever thing any aftermarket ecm's done lately, was the Gen VII with the Manifold temp sensor. Again, I'm not totally versed in all the aftermarket stuff.

Bruce, alot of these are good ideas and some are available as we speak.

BS3 has fuel learning, individual cylinder timing and fuel control for the DIS, A/C cut out, TCC control, fan control, additional outputs (PWM & on/off i.e. boost control), the ability to log other sensors but sorry no adjustment tables, internal datalogging, on the Buick V6 the ability to control the other 2 injector outputs for additional fuel or alcohol.

The FAST XFI has individual cylinder timing and fuel control, A/C cut out, TCC control, fan control, PWM boost control, PWM EGR control, 8 aux inputs along with driveshaft and aux shaft speed, 4 aux outputs.

Rumor has it that there are a few manufactures out there working on traction control.

Cylinder pressure sensing (ion sensing) technology is out there but it is years away from being incorporated into the aftermarket.

I am not sure what you mean by civilized launch?

As far as PE mode is concerned both the above ECU's have alot of TPS & MAP based enrichment tables that can be tailored to your specific needs. BS3 has decel enleanment and some new methods of calculating PE.

Our experience with the GEN 7 manifold temp sensor inout is limited but we have noticed that it seems that their port temp reading is the the air intake temp plus the manifold temp divided by 2. I am not sure if that is how they still calculate it and also how they are using that info in their speed density calculations. Maybe someine from DFI could chime in and answer this.

 

[LinearX]

BigStuff3 did not get "snatched up" by MSD as you say. They made a deal with MSD to sell a base engine mangement system, labeled the Gen 2, so MSD can offer contingencies in the NHRA, etc. and have a system in their lineup.

I didn't mean "snatched up" to sound negative at all. Moreso, I think that MSD see that there is probably some potential to make money there so they got on it. I won't fault them for that. I was, however, unaware that they made a deal instead of an outright purchase.

None of the aftermarket ECU's we tune, regardless of brand, chug and blow black smoke on a cold start. Those sysmptoms are tuning issues not hardware issues. I don't know where you are that you see this but obviously someone needs to spend more time on their tune.

I, too, have seen this on cars. Most, though, are cars at the track so they don't worry about fuel mileage, cold start, idle, etc. They're just shooting at the target at the end of the track with no regard for the amenities that make a car fun to drive other than at WOT.

As a completely off-topic comment, I saw one of your Turbo Buicks at an NSCA race years ago and that's what spurred me to want to get one. A friend of mine still trips out over your cars.

 

[InjectConnect]

I didn't mean "snatched up" to sound negative at all. Moreso, I think that MSD see that there is probably some potential to make money there so they got on it. I won't fault them for that. I was, however, unaware that they made a deal instead of an outright purchase.



I, too, have seen this on cars. Most, though, are cars at the track so they don't worry about fuel mileage, cold start, idle, etc. They're just shooting at the target at the end of the track with no regard for the amenities that make a car fun to drive other than at WOT.

As a completely off-topic comment, I saw one of your Turbo Buicks at an NSCA race years ago and that's what spurred me to want to get one. A friend of mine still trips out over your cars.

I do understand where you were coming from with MSD. They have snatched up Superchips & Racepak lately. At least it is a company that does offer great products and gives back to the racing community.

Some race cars guys don't take the time to tune them properly for anything other than WOT. Still it is a tuning issue not a hardware issue as some seem to believe. Some combinations, specifically ones with wild cams, there is no way to idle it cold with out it smoking, but just try and make it run with a OE engine management system, not going to happen.

We still have the car, haven't run it lately. The chassis is now outdated and have no desire to cut the car up. Our local track is going to have an 8.50 index next year so hopefully we will blow the dust off of it and get back to racing.