750H.P.V6
Brutal 6 Racing
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2001
- Messages
- 3,619
Bill,
I agree. I sort of took what you said out of context. I appologize.
Neal
I agree. I sort of took what you said out of context. I appologize.
Neal
Girdle...Again
- Thread starter Gary
- Start date
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TheNovaMan
New Member
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2002
- Messages
- 60
What is the difference between on-center and off-center blocks?
Bill, and everyone,
It is not the billet cap that necessarily adds all of the strength to the bottom end of the stage blocks, it is the 4-bolt arrangement.
That is why they were first offered with cast caps. Comparing stage 2 splayed and cross bolted blocks to stock blocks with girdles or billet caps is like comparing John Forces Hemi to a Dodge Neon motor.....
well maybe not that extreme but you know what I mean.
Tying the bottom of the caps to the panrail like the girdle accomplishes adds the most strength. This is why; the further away from the parting line of the cap and the block you can support the cap more stability that cap will have. It is a simple leverage advantage. The panrail offers you a perfect solid support for the cap. Why wouldn't you take advantage of this? This is exactly why they started cross bolting the later stage blocks.
What do you think the Buick engineers would have done if they would have been limited to two bolt, mains...? Of course they would have used a girdle.
About the "pinch" the block exerts on the caps to hold them in place. This is the reason I don't care for the billet-capped motor. In almost 75% of the blocks that I have built, checked or even glanced at with billet caps installed have had this very critical fitment wrong. Most of the time they are too loose causing the caps to walk. Once I diagnosed one that was too tight and caused the webbing to actually crack. I like the fact that during install, you can set the amount of interference between the cap and the block. What I don't like is the fact that it seems it is so hard for automotive machine shops to get it right.
Even with billet caps "tight" in the register under extreme load the caps will actually cause the panrail to spread therefore releasing the blocks grip on the cap and causing the cap to walk.
This is why I encourage using the stock caps with the girdle. They are already fit to the block from the factory. If the cap has not walked without a girdle is certainly won't walk after installing one.
It holds the panrails together keeping a tight grip on the cap and not allowing it to walk. Stock caps also make the installation the most trouble free.
I have had customers send me their caps, I machined them and sent them back to them they themselves installed the girdle and they have been running trouble free without their block ever seeing a machine shop.
I have not had a single block failure with a girdled block since I designed it back in 96. I have even had a half dozen customers break cranks in girdled blocks and not one of them hurt the block. I have however seen a few billet capped motors with their billet caps still attached to the crank when it hit the pavement.
I'm glad Geno had billet caps on his stock block instead of a girdle. Just think if he had a girdle, instead of ripping the webbing out of the block he would probably still running that stock block, would have won all of the TSM races and probably gone 9.70 by now
I don't know who Gary has been talking too but the original purpose of the girdle WAS to strengthen the entire bottom end of the stock block not just the caps.
About the leaks, yes any time you add another place for oil to leak from with a turbo Buick you might get a leak there. I have done allot of research on this. Diagnosing the problem it actually has one vulnerable spot where it can leak from. It is between the pan and the girdle (not the girdle and the block) on the passenger side of the car. The reason for this is simple. The oil whipping off of the crank is slammed against the girdle "lip" that protrudes slightly from the inner wall of the oil pan. Radiusing this edge helps but the only thing that is really needed is a generous amount of silicone in this inside corner...
I hope this lengthy posting helps...
It is not the billet cap that necessarily adds all of the strength to the bottom end of the stage blocks, it is the 4-bolt arrangement.
That is why they were first offered with cast caps. Comparing stage 2 splayed and cross bolted blocks to stock blocks with girdles or billet caps is like comparing John Forces Hemi to a Dodge Neon motor.....
well maybe not that extreme but you know what I mean.Tying the bottom of the caps to the panrail like the girdle accomplishes adds the most strength. This is why; the further away from the parting line of the cap and the block you can support the cap more stability that cap will have. It is a simple leverage advantage. The panrail offers you a perfect solid support for the cap. Why wouldn't you take advantage of this? This is exactly why they started cross bolting the later stage blocks.
What do you think the Buick engineers would have done if they would have been limited to two bolt, mains...? Of course they would have used a girdle.
About the "pinch" the block exerts on the caps to hold them in place. This is the reason I don't care for the billet-capped motor. In almost 75% of the blocks that I have built, checked or even glanced at with billet caps installed have had this very critical fitment wrong. Most of the time they are too loose causing the caps to walk. Once I diagnosed one that was too tight and caused the webbing to actually crack. I like the fact that during install, you can set the amount of interference between the cap and the block. What I don't like is the fact that it seems it is so hard for automotive machine shops to get it right.
Even with billet caps "tight" in the register under extreme load the caps will actually cause the panrail to spread therefore releasing the blocks grip on the cap and causing the cap to walk.
This is why I encourage using the stock caps with the girdle. They are already fit to the block from the factory. If the cap has not walked without a girdle is certainly won't walk after installing one.
It holds the panrails together keeping a tight grip on the cap and not allowing it to walk. Stock caps also make the installation the most trouble free.
I have had customers send me their caps, I machined them and sent them back to them they themselves installed the girdle and they have been running trouble free without their block ever seeing a machine shop.
I have not had a single block failure with a girdled block since I designed it back in 96. I have even had a half dozen customers break cranks in girdled blocks and not one of them hurt the block. I have however seen a few billet capped motors with their billet caps still attached to the crank when it hit the pavement.
I'm glad Geno had billet caps on his stock block instead of a girdle. Just think if he had a girdle, instead of ripping the webbing out of the block he would probably still running that stock block, would have won all of the TSM races and probably gone 9.70 by now
I don't know who Gary has been talking too but the original purpose of the girdle WAS to strengthen the entire bottom end of the stock block not just the caps.
About the leaks, yes any time you add another place for oil to leak from with a turbo Buick you might get a leak there. I have done allot of research on this. Diagnosing the problem it actually has one vulnerable spot where it can leak from. It is between the pan and the girdle (not the girdle and the block) on the passenger side of the car. The reason for this is simple. The oil whipping off of the crank is slammed against the girdle "lip" that protrudes slightly from the inner wall of the oil pan. Radiusing this edge helps but the only thing that is really needed is a generous amount of silicone in this inside corner...
I hope this lengthy posting helps...
trading t/a
I'm Angry!!!!!
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2001
- Messages
- 1,120
Talking about the rods: arent the armasteel rods good for something like 650hp? Instead of a full girdle wouldn't it be better just to tie the caps together that way the stress is distributed over all of them. I'm new to the buick engines but it seems that the block isn't a weak point as much as the caps and crank if abused frequently.
Race Jace, In my original post you will noptice that to me, the girdle seems to be the way to go. The person I spoke to , if i gave his name, is someone known to everyone. He is not a engine guy. He was just speaking of what he had been told over the years regarding girdles. The purpose of my original post was to get as much info as possible and then make an intelligent decision. Bill Andserson of Anderson Performance is awfully good at what he does. He's built three engines for me and I've never had a problem . He's getting ready to do number four. I'm leaning heavily towards the girdle and if I make that decision I want Bill to do the job regardless. My post gave me lots of info. Thanks, everyone
Gary
Gary
Gary,
Yes i did read your original post and understand your position. I know Bill is competent to do the block either way you decide.
The main reason that shops try to persuade you to not go with the girdle is the fact that they will be held responsible if an oil leak happens to occur. I can totaly understand where they are coming from. If these shops would call me before assy. I could probably avoid allot of head aches.
Yes i did read your original post and understand your position. I know Bill is competent to do the block either way you decide.
The main reason that shops try to persuade you to not go with the girdle is the fact that they will be held responsible if an oil leak happens to occur. I can totaly understand where they are coming from. If these shops would call me before assy. I could probably avoid allot of head aches.
Thanks Jason, If I go Girdle, which I figure to do, I'll be sure to talk with you and Billy to get done, whatever is needed to get it right. If radiusing the girdle wouild help stop the leaking, could it not be radius'd during the manufacturing process. And I wonder why the pan to block gasket wouldn't seal. I've never been standing inside an engine that is running, but I suspect there is a helluva "oil storm" going on in there, yet typically we don't have oil leaking from the pan gasket. No real need to respond to this post as I will be talking to you.
Gary
Gary
