Goodbye R-134a, hello HFO-1234yf

[granatl]

GM is phasing out R-134a as A/C refigerant and planning to switch to HFO-1234yf for 2013 cars, mostly because it breaks down in the atmosphere MUCH more rapidly than the refrigerant that it's replacing.

FOXNews.com - GM's Air Conditioners to Promote Global Cooling

Living in the hot climate that I do, I still miss R-12. I hope the new is (like advertised) at least as good as 134a. In stop and go traffic, above 108, 134a is whimpy. However, if you're on the highway pumping lots of air through the condensor, it seems to work pretty well.

 

[davidf]

I'm glad I still have a case of R12 stashed. It can still be bought through the right channels from certain parts stores. Its gonna be tough to be that good ole 12.

 

[novaderrik]

so i take it that the patent on 134 ran out...

 

[scot w.]

I'm glad I still have a case of R12 stashed. It can still be bought through the right channels from certain parts stores. Its gonna be tough to be that good ole 12.

R12 was good, But RB-276 refridgerant is even better than R12! I has better cooling characteristics and the numbers on the charts are even better than the R12. The BEST thing about the RB-276 is that it's a direct drop in replacement for R12 & 134a!!

I put this in my old 1991 Izusu P/U work truck and had 34* air coming out of the vents while it was 90's outside!! it would even fog over the back window....

Even charged both of (Turbo Daves) Grand Nationals with it and he was happy.

Soon the GNS T-Type will have it as well and the 2005 Tahoe..

I done a post on this very subject years ago, Search might find it.

SW.

 

[ijames]

so i take it that the patent on 134 ran out...

No, but it may be time to put fresh aluminum foil in your hat :biggrin: Seriously, R134 was always intended as a short term replacment for R12. It eliminated the ozone depletion effect but is a pretty bad greenhouse gas (I forget how much worse than CO2, the standard, but I think 100x from shaky memory). It was the best they had at the time, so it got used until better choices were developed. HFO-1234yf has zero ozone depletion potential and a global warming potential of 4, and so far as I've read will be used for a long time to come. The only other gas under consideration at this time is CO2 itself but that requires pressures of 500-600 psi so compressors and plumbing get thick and heavy. Temperature-pressure wise HFO-1234yf is basically a drop in for R134, is compatible with R134 seals, oils, and hoses, and bench tests by Dupont show it is within maybe 5% of R134 in efficiency (sometimes better, sometimes worse, just dropping it in). If you tweak the expansion valve or orifice, like people do to get a little more out of an R12-R134 conversion, it should slightly outperform R134. Naturally there will be a new set of fittings on autos to keep from mixing HFO-1234yf and R134 but the technology of all the gauges and recovery systems is exactly the same since the pressures and oils are the same.

Oh, yes, it is slightly flammable but no more so than the oil spray in a bad leak with R12 or R134. I wouldn't worry about using a straight hydrocarbon like Oz12 so I'm not worried at all about this, in the small quantities in a car compared to the gas tank and oil reservoirs.

 

[ijames]

RB-276 is a blend of 79% R134a and 29% HCFC-142b, plus 2% oil. I don't doubt that it can cool better than straight R134a but the HCFC-142b contains chlorine just like R22 and so it has a non-zero ozone depletion potential, plus the R134 is a greenhouse gas. Since R22 is now out of production like R12 was in the mid-90's I have to wonder how much longer HCFC-142b will be sold, and so how long RB-276 will be available - you might want to stock up now, or at least do some research.

 

[jstahl]

Ha! I bet this explains why R134 just made a $2 per can jump at Walmart.

Crappy compressors with teflon rings aside, nothing was wrong with R12 except that it's systems required a lot less maintenance.

Since GM is making the move and the Govt owns GM, do you think the upcoming switch is payback to a particular company?

 

[novaderrik]

Ha! I bet this explains why R134 just made a $2 per can jump at Walmart.

Crappy compressors with teflon rings aside, nothing was wrong with R12 except that it's systems required a lot less maintenance.

Since GM is making the move and the Govt owns GM, do you think the upcoming switch is payback to a particular company?

the price of 134 jumps a couple of dollars at Wal Mart every summer.

 

[jstahl]

the price of 134 jumps a couple of dollars at Wal Mart every summer.

Honestly I've not noticed that. It was $3.x per can, then $4.x per can, then $6 and now $8. I can't recall ever seeing the price drop.

A search reveals 134 production was scheduled to decline beginning in 2010. Could be some truth there.

 

[chopped39]

The price went through the roof on thirty pound containers.last year I paid $78.00. This year $195.00 Time for some new stuff. I guess Dupont has people coming up for retirement again.

 

[BandAid]

R-12 Replacement: R-406a (autofrost) - Third Generation F-Body Message Boards

 

[krom]

Just buy R12 on CL, usually 10-15 a can.

 

[TurboDave]

R12 was good, But RB-276 refridgerant is even better than R12! I has better cooling characteristics and the numbers on the charts are even better than the R12. The BEST thing about the RB-276 is that it's a direct drop in replacement for R12 & 134a!!

I put this in my old 1991 Izusu P/U work truck and had 34* air coming out of the vents while it was 90's outside!! it would even fog over the back window....

Even charged both of (Turbo Daves) Grand Nationals with it and he was happy.

Soon the GNS T-Type will have it as well and the 2005 Tahoe..

I done a post on this very subject years ago, Search might find it.

SW.

Scot's right, I love the stuff!! I saw some pretty amazing numbers on vent temps on both of the GN's. It would hover around the mid/high 40's while driving, and the most amazing thing I saw was that while sitting at a light the vent temps dropped even lower to the very low 40 range!!

 

[V6POWER]

Where did you buy RB-276?

 

[scot w.]

Where did you buy RB-276?

Had it at work where is was an H.V.A.C.R tech for 9yrs.

I even think RB-276 is cross refferanced as 404a or 406a

I'm sure if you do a search it will show the cross refferance number as well.


SW.

 

[davidf]

Had it at work where is was an H.V.A.C.R tech for 9yrs.

I even think RB-276 is cross refferanced as 404a or 406a

I'm sure if you do a search it will show the cross refferance number as well.


SW.

What refrigerant oil do you use with this?

 

[rmar]

Visit ourHome Page for more HVACR knowledge!

Home Page Links to Unfamiliar Refrigerants

12a

Manufacturer/Dist: Enviro-Safe Refrigerants
Web Site:Enviro-Safe
ASHRAE #: N/A
Trade Name: 12a
Type: N/A
Recommended Oil: Existing
Application: Mobile & Stationary Refrigeration
Replaces: R-12


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

22a
Manufacturer/Dist: Enviro-Safe Refrigerants
Web Site:Enviro-Safe
ASHRAE #: N/A
Trade Name: 22a
Type: N/A
Recommended Oil: Existing
Application: Stationary Refrigeration
Replaces: R-22


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

502a
Manufacturer/Dist: Enviro-Safe Refrigerants
Web Site:Enviro-Safe
ASHRAE #: N/A
Trade Name: 502a
Type: N/A
Recommended Oil: Existing
Application: Mobile & Stationary Refrigeration
Replaces: R-502


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Autofrost GHG-X3 / R-406A
Manufacturer/Dist: Autofrost
Web Site:Autofrost
ASHRAE #: R-406A
Trade Name: Autofrost GHG-X3
Type: EPA SNAP Acceptable
Recommended Oil: Mineral or AB
Application: Mobile & Stationary Refrigeration
Replaces: R-12 & R-500 in most cases.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Autofrost GHG-X7
(replaced by GHG-X8)

Manufacturer/Dist: Autofrost
Web Site:Autofrost
ASHRAE #: N/A
Trade Name: Autofrost GHG-X7
Type: N/A
Recommended Oil: PAG or POE
Application: Mobile Refrigeration
Replaces: R-134a


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Autofrost GHG-X8 / Cool Top
Manufacturer/Dist: Autofrost
Web Site:Autofrost
ASHRAE #:N/A
Trade Name: Autofrost GHG-X8
Type: N/A
Recommended Oil: PAG or POE
Application: Mobile Refrigeration
Replaces: R-134a


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FR 12 / R-416A / FRIGC
Manufacturer/Dist: CFC Refimax, LLC
Web Site:FR 12
ASHRAE #: R-416A
Trade Name: FR 12
Type: EPA SNAP
Recommended Oil: 70% Mineral & 30% POE
Application: Mobile Refrigeration
Replaces: R-12 & R134a


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Freeze 12
Manufacturer/Dist: Johnsen's
Web Site:Freeze 12
ASHRAE #: N/A
Trade Name: Freeze 12
Type: N/A
Recommended Oil: Existing
Application: Mobile Refrigeration
Replaces: R-12


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FreeZone / RB-276
Manufacturer/Dist: Refrigerant Gases, Inc
Web Site:FreeZone
ASHRAE #: RB-276
Trade Name: FreeZone
Type: EPA SNAP
Recommended Oil: Existing
Application: Stationary and Mobile Refrigeration
Replaces: R-12


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HC 12a
Manufacturer/Dist: OZ Technology Inc.
Web Site:HC 12a
ASHRAE #: N/A
Trade Name: HC 12a
Type: N/A
Recommended Oil: Synthetic or Organic.
Application: Mobile, Marine, & Stationary Refrigeration
Replaces: R-12 & R134a


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HC 22a
Manufacturer/Dist: OZ Technology Inc.
Web Site:HC 22a
ASHRAE #: N/A
Trade Name: HC 22a
Type: N/A
Recommended Oil: Synthetic or Organic.
Application: Stationary Refrigeration
Replaces: R-22


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hot Shot / R-414B
Manufacturer/Dist: ICOR International
Web Site:Hot Shot
ASHRAE #: R-414B
Trade Name: Hot Shot
Type: EPA SNAP
Recommended Oil: Existing
Application: Mobile, Marine, Aircraft & Stationary Refrigeration
Replaces: R-12, R134a & R-500


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ISCEON MO29 / R-422D
Manufacturer/Dist: Dupont
Web Site:ISCEON 9 Series
ASHRAE #: R-422D
Trade Name: ISCEON MO29
Type: HFC
Recommended Oil: Existing in most cases
Application: DX water chillers
Replaces: R-22


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ISCEON 39TC / R-423A
Manufacturer/Dist: Dupont
Web Site:ISCEON 9 Series
ASHRAE #: R-423A
Trade Name: ISCEON 39TC
Type: HFC
Recommended Oil: POE
Application: Centrifugal chillers designed for R-12
Replaces: R-12


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ISCEON MO49 / R-413A
Manufacturer/Dist: Dupont
Web Site:ISCEON 9 Series
ASHRAE #: R-413A
Trade Name: ISCEON MO49
Type: HFC
Recommended Oil: Existing in most cases
Application: Automotive air conditioning, DX stationary A/C and DX medium-temperature refrigeration.
Replaces: R-12


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ISCEON MO59 / R-417A
Manufacturer/Dist: Dupont
Web Site:ISCEON 9 Series
ASHRAE #: R-417A
Trade Name: ISCEON MO59
Type: HFC
Recommended Oil: Existing in most cases
Application: Residential & commercial AC & medium temp refrigeration
Replaces: R-22


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ISCEON MO79 / R-422A
Manufacturer/Dist: Dupont
Web Site:ISCEON 9 Series
ASHRAE #: R-422A
Trade Name: ISCEON MO79
Type: HFC
Recommended Oil: Existing in most cases
Application: DX medium- to low-temperature refrigeration.
Replaces: R-22 and R-502


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ISCEON MO89
Manufacturer/Dist: Dupont
Web Site:ISCEON 9 Series
ASHRAE #: N/A
Trade Name: ISCEON MO89
Type: HFC
Recommended Oil: AB, MO or POE
Application: Very low temperature refrigeration
Replaces: R-13B1


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NU-22 / R-417A
Manufacturer/Dist: ICOR International
Web Site:NU-22
ASHRAE #: R-417A
Trade Name: NU-22
Type: HFC
Recommended Oil: Existing
Application: Stationary Refrigeration
Replaces: R-22


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NU-22B / R-422B
Manufacturer/Dist: ICOR International
Web Site:NU-22B
ASHRAE #: R-422B
Trade Name: NU-22B
Type: HFC
Recommended Oil: Existing
Application: Stationary Refrigeration
Replaces: R-22


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One Shot / R-422A
Manufacturer/Dist: ICOR International
Web Site:One Shot
ASHRAE #: R-422A
Trade Name: One Shot
Type: N/A
Recommended Oil: Existing
Application: DX medium- to low-temperature refrigeration.
Replaces: R-502, R-22(LT), R-507A, R-404A, R-402A, R-402B & R-408A


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RS-24
Manufacturer/Dist:Refrigerant Services Inc
Web Site:Refrigerant Services Inc
ASHRAE #: N/A
Trade Name: RS-24
Type: N/A
Recommended Oil: Existing
Application: MObile and Stationary
Replaces: R-12


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RS-44
Manufacturer/Dist: Refrigerant Services Inc
Web Site:Refrigerant Services Inc
ASHRAE #: N/A
Trade Name: RS-44
Type: N/A
Recommended Oil: Existing
Application: Stationary A/C
Replaces: R-22


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SUVA 95 / R-508B
Manufacturer/Dist: Dupont
Web Site:SUVA
ASHRAE #: R-508B
Trade Name: SUVA 95
Type: PFC
Recommended Oil: POE
Application: Very low temperature refrigeration
Replaces: R-13, R-23, and R-503


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SUVA 123 / R-123
Manufacturer/Dist: Dupont
Web Site:SUVA
ASHRAE #: R-123
Trade Name: SUVA 123
Type: HCFC
Recommended Oil: MO
Application: Centrifugal chillers
Replaces: R-11


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SUVA 124 / R-124
Manufacturer/Dist: Dupont
Web Site:SUVA
ASHRAE #: R-124
Trade Name: SUVA 124
Type: HCFC
Recommended Oil: AB
Application: Centrifugal chillers
Replaces: R-114


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SUVA 236fa / R-236fa
Manufacturer/Dist: Dupont
Web Site:SUVA
ASHRAE #: R-236fa
Trade Name: SUVA 236fa
Type: HFC
Recommended Oil: POE
Application: Centrifugal chillers
Replaces: R-114


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SUVA 407C / R-407C
Manufacturer/Dist: Dupont
Web Site:SUVA
ASHRAE #: R-407C
Trade Name: SUVA 407C
Type: HFC
Recommended Oil: POE
Application: New residential and commercial air conditioning and heat pumps. Existing medium-temperature applications
Replaces: R-22


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SUVA 410A / R-410A
Manufacturer/Dist: Dupont
Web Site:SUVA
ASHRAE #: R-410A
Trade Name: SUVA 410A
Type: HFC
Recommended Oil: POE
Application: New residential and commercial air conditioning and heat pumps.
Replaces: The R-22 market, should be used only in systems specifically designed for R-410A.
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[ijames]

Anyone who has seen my handwriting will understand why I love this chart. It is several years old but has most of the refrigerants under discussion, for anyone who wants composition and pressure-temp data.

View attachment refrigerants.pdf

 

[rmar]

So as of now, if a person wanted or had to do a conversion what is the consensus on what gas to convert to?


According to the chart RB-276 and freeze-12 are almost the same....




.

 

[scot w.]

RB-276 is an EPA-SNAP accepted alternative for R-12 and R-500 and can be used to replace134a. RB-276 is EPA-SNAP accepted for automotive and stationary applications. RB-276can be used in a wide variety of applications. RB-276 is a direct replacement requiring no oil changes or system component changes. RB-276 is available in 25-pound cylinders and 12-ounce cans. RB-276 is manufactured by RMS of Georgia,LLC and is available at wholesalers throughout the nation.