hey silversleeper!

[TType84]

you seem to be the resident car audio guru...

if i were to get an infinity component set, would the dash be an OK place to put the tweeters or not ?

right now i have stock dash and stock door speakers. the rears are cadence 3 way 6x9s. a premier 740mp is the head.

its just not 'loud' enough right now, the dash speakers and the 6x9s can be heard but the door speakers arent even audible.. i was looking at just maybe gettign some 2 way references and putting them in the dash and being done with it but.. what would you suggest i do for dash/door speakers?

later on i plan on getting an adire sub.. but bass is not really a big deal right now, i just want to be able to hear over the single 3" exhaust :-D

 

[SilverSleeper]

Not really the resident guru. That would be Mr Wizard aka "Audiowizard". But, I try and help when I can.

The dash is one of the worst places to put speakers. Period. They reflect off the glass, are way too close to the listener, and limiting on speaker size. I dont think any 3.5" speaker will play "loud" enough for you. So the dash is kinda out anyway because of that.

The kick panels ( Q-forms, or custom work) would be ideal, but the doors are good too.
If you have a component set, you will want the mid and high drivers as close together as possible.
Since you already have the CS2 door pods, I would put a good set of 2 way 5.25"s in there and be done with it. If you feel the need to go with a component set, mount the mid in the door, and the tweeter to the side of the pod. You would want the speakers as close together as they can be.
This will give you a much better stereo image than dash speakers can. Ideally, you want your left ear to be as far from the left source as your right ear is from the right source. The "sweet spot". Dash speakers are too close to have equal paths for the drivers seat.
Any other questions, just feel free to ask. I'll help if I can!

 

[Audiowizard]

Originally posted by SilverSleeper
Not really the resident guru. That would be Mr Wizard aka "Audiowizard". But, I try and help when I can.

Thanks Jay! I appreciate that but I really wished I was the guru! I am just an audiophile with a few install skills ! There are alot of helpful and knowledgable people that post like.......

GNandTTA..............
MCSS383...............
XtantRegal.............
DConner................
Zam70...................

and the list goes on...............!

Originally posted by SilverSleeper
"The dash is one of the worst places to put speakers. Period. They reflect off the glass, are way too close to the listener, and limiting on speaker size."

I'm with ya on this one! I personally don't care for the driver (speaker) to bounce of the windshield. Its merely a personal preferance for me. A set of kicks would be the way to go or.....the doors if you desire foot room.

 

[SilverSleeper]

or.....the doors if you desire foot room.

Of course,
if you really want some sweet door panel pods that will hold a bigger driver....

Mr Wizard makes those!


Im just a guy that likes music (drummer of 13+ years) and cars. I also studied recording studio arts in college, which really helped a lot. It seemed natural to become a car audio nut. I was actually going to get my MECP certification at one point, but there really isnt much need in this area. I even still have the course books and videos around here somewhere. I still do some side jobs now and then, but not nearly as much as I used to.

We have some great people on board here. !

 

[TType84]

audiowizard, i think ive acutally seen your car at the buick vs ford shootout.. not for sure but not many cars have the wheels you have, and this one had them!

in any case..

you guys think these speakrs would do well in that position?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=14941&item=1947840678

im afraid without any kind of 'enclosure' they are going to sound horrible..

plus.. whats the deepest speaker i can put in the door? those are 2 1/8"

 

[SilverSleeper]

I think those speakers would be great for the doors. If they fit. Going by the measurements on crutchfields website, the drivers that are less than 2" seem to be a direct fit. However, the kappa set according to them will not fit. I believe they are too deep. You would have to build out pods to get them to fit in the doors without interference.
I think if the depth is less than 2" they would fit.
The speakers would sound fine without an enclosure. Usually the mid and high drivers do not need to be enclosed to sound good. They are designed to work in a "free-air" setting typical of stock speaker locations.
I wouldnt chance buying them, sorry to say.
If you really want powerful (read deep or large) drivers up front, you will have to get custom door pods or kickpanel pods. Otherwise, the doors are pretty much limited to the shallower drivers.

 

[TType84]

i havent looked at a pod since i installed it onto the new door we put on the pass side of my car..

is there any chance i could cut out that extra 1/8th of an inch out of the back of the pod?

 

[Audiowizard]

Originally posted by TType84
audiowizard, i think ive acutally seen your car at the buick vs ford shootout.. not for sure but not many cars have the wheels you have, and this one had them!

That was my car at the shoot-out! Next time come over and say hello!

and thanks for the plug Jayman!

 

[GNandTTA]

The dash is one of the worst places to put speakers. Period.

IYO, I know other people, including myself, who think otherwise.

They reflect off the glass, are way too close to the listener,

and kick panels hidden by your feet, legs and steering wheel are that much better?? By the time any volume makes it to your ears it has been reflected off of different types of surfaces (pants, skin, metal, etc) all of which alter and color the sound. You can not honestly say that the sound is not affected by any of this. Plus off axis response of a given tweeter is vital for a kick panel location tweeter. Most tweeters have less than optimum off axis response. I believe MB Quarts are one of the better ones. And putting tweeters low in the door is an even bigger compromise. You are now shooting sound at a 90 angle right into your seat or legs.

On my TTA I have kicks which hold a Boston Pro 6.4 set. Sitting in the car I can barely even see the drivers side kick panel. It is imperative that sound (except for deep bass tones) have a direct line to your ears. Anything less, the sound will be colored. So I added a Boston Pro 4.4 in the dash. Angled the tweeters away from the glass as much as I could.

Bottom line, any install in a car is a compromise. You can never fully emulate yourself sitting in your living room with your speakers equally spaced apart (with a beer in your hand ).

I dont think any 3.5" speaker will play "loud" enough for you.

My Infinity Kappa's play very very loud. Most people judge the sound of the dash speakers using the factory system as a reference. Get a real good pair of 3 1/2's crossed over correctly with a bunch of power and you would be amazed. Got 50 watts of old school HiFonics power going to each Kappa for the past 3 years now. Why do you think many home theater systems use drivers which are 3 1/2" or smaller!! Look at Bose home theater systems. There are other esoteric brands which do this as well. Adding door speakers can supplement the loss in bass response from the crossed over 3 1/2's. You can attain a good loud frontstage which is completely stealth.

Plus I never wanted to butcher up my kick panel area (bending the e-brake arrm and moving the ECM. The TTA panels were a drop in.

 

[TType84]

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=66932

hey guys a little update, i just made a new thread because i think ive decided against the infinity stuff.. so check on over there and tell me what you guys think~!

 

[mcss383]

Actually GNandTTA, all car audio speakers are designed to have a flat off-axis (either 30 or 60 degree) and not so flat on-axis response because thats how they will always be in a car.

The main reason why the dash spot is horrid is because of the pathlength difference. With any frequency below ~4kHz (not including bass freq's) pathlength is THE most important consideration. When dealing with freq's higher than ~4kHz pathlength isn't that much of a concern, so if you utilize the dash location it can only be a tweeter and playing 4kHz and up or your image will be badly skewed.

Now for reflections, there is no comparison between the reflections off the glass and when in kicks. Reflections from the kicks are off soft materials that will absorb the sound some, with glass its ALL reflected and out of phase. If you put any speakers in the dash or A-pillars then they have to be 'following the curve of the windshield'. They can't be facing the glass or it will not sound nearly as good. There is no way to avoid bad reflections in a car, thats why car audio is sooooo much harder to achieve than home audio. You just have to try different things, and what people over the decades have found is kicks and/or doors are better than dash in MOST cases. But it does come down to preference a lot of times.

head over to www.concertcar.com and read up some of the stuff Scott Buwalda has. Its very informative. His forum crashes all the time so the info there on speaker locations has been lost, but he has posted a lot on carsound.com about it.


But if your not just diehard on imaging EITHER way can sound 'good'.

 

[GNandTTA]

Actually GNandTTA, all car audio speakers are designed to have a flat off-axis (either 30 or 60 degree) and not so flat on-axis response because thats how they will always be in a car.

Maybe they are supposed to but from what I have read there are often profound differences in off-axis response between different manufacturers. The polar speaker response charts don't lie.

I can see your point of a soft surface being better for reflection than a hard surface such as glass. If it were only surface the sound in a kick panel were being reflected off of I would agree. Focusing on the tweeter sound, because they are the most directional, the driver's side kick panel bounces off of more than one surface before finally making it to your ears. The sound is bouncing off of one surface changing direction before bouncing off of another; all of this causes cancellations and colorization, not to mention being out of phase. Chances are the sound will be bouncing off of your shoes, pants or legs (skin, or material), and steering wheel before making it to your ears. A good sound room uses soft surfaces to improve sound. But they only have the sound bouncing off of one surface, not numerous ones.

Plus the path length improvement using kicks over dash I believe is often over rated. There is a difference, but it is not as substantial as it is often made out to be; unless you drive with your head close to the steering wheel. Then there is a major difference.

Back in the late 80's I remember putting many component systems in cars like GN's. We always put the tweeter in the dash and the midrange/woofer in the door. Which to me was always crazy because one of the first rules of speaker design is having the directional sound emanate from one area.

 

[SilverSleeper]

Car sound is always a compromise. You do the best you can with what the interior design has to offer. In a perfect car, we would have no windows, one seat, no hard surfaces, and the engine would be mounted in the back to make room for large drivers in the front.
Back to reality though...
Windows are one of the biggest reflection problems in the whole car. If your tweets are mounted in the kicks, very little of it reflects off of the glass before first arrival. Mount the tweets in the dash, pointed up, and the entire sound is reflected. Plus, the windshield being curved and somewhat irregular, will color the sound.
A properly designed pair of kick pods will minimize reflections from the drivers. If you look at a set of q-forms when installed in a g-body, the tweeter is placed up high, and has little or no obstruction to the opposite passengers corresponding ear. (i.e, right side to drivers right ear, left side to passengers left ear).
Short of the perfect car audio design, off-axis response characteristics will always play a part. But, by placing the drivers in the kicks, that lessens the effect. Well designed drivers also have a better off-axis response curve than the cheap ones. Thats where imaging takes a backseat and speaker design takes over.
By placing the drivers low, reflections are minimized. The soft seats, clothing, carpet, absorb not reflect the sound.
The major reflections are going to come from the windows. With the drivers set, the first arrival will not be colored. Since the windows in our cars are not too far from the listener, the second (reflected) arrival will be fairly quick, but with the other soft surfaces absorbing much of it, it will be at a volume that will not interfere with the inital wave.
While all that may sound like mumbo-jumbo, and we can throw all the theory and system design around we want, none of it matters if you dont like how it sounds. Unless you are competeing in SQ, your ears are the final judge. Ever been in an SQ car with a perfectly flat response curve? They sound weird.

Thats my 2¢. Now back to figuring out how to mount the motor in the trunk so I can fit those 18"s up front!

 

[HzEmall Regal]

Originally posted by Audiowizard
Thanks Jay! I appreciate that but I really wished I was the guru! I am just an audiophile with a few install skills ! There are alot of helpful and knowledgable people that post like.......

GNandTTA..............
MCSS383...............
XtantRegal.............
DConner................
Zam70...................

and the list goes on...............!



I'm with ya on this one! I personally don't care for the driver (speaker) to bounce of the windshield. Its merely a personal preferance for me. A set of kicks would be the way to go or.....the doors if you desire foot room.

Thanks for the acknowlegement

 

[TurboJim]

My waveguides arent blocked by anything

 

[Audiowizard]

Originally posted by Xtant Regal
Thanks for the acknowlegement

No prob! You do know your stuff and your input has been very valuable.

 

[GNandTTA]

My waveguides arent blocked by anything

That is one option I always wanted to explore further. Got any pics? How much power going to them?

 

[TurboJim]

Originally posted by GNandTTA
That is one option I always wanted to explore further. Got any pics? How much power going to them?

Couple so-so pics at http://www.turbojim.com:231/jim/stereo.htm

I got 100 watts goin to each one. REMEMBER...the sensitivity of them is like 112db so they dont need much to keep up with the rest of the system. I could have gotten by with 50/chan, but the Rockford umm...jeez I forget now, Punch 80? wasnt the same size as the 100 or 200 and I didnt want that "look" if that makes sense.

If you'd like better p;ics, let me k ow, I think I have some film pics around here. Otherwise I can go into the garage and snap some.

Besides...I miss my car. Be a good excuse to lift the cover and see how she's doin