I pulled the heads and this is what I found.

[turbotaone]

Well I got both the heads off last night finally. I found that no.3
cylinder was the one that blew,it split the fire ring wide open
right above the header.I lucked out that it wasn't near a water
jacket or on the intake side. I'm confused with what I found
when I unbolted the heads Instead of head bolts
there were studs, All sixteen of them. Several of them had ARP
stamped on the end,except the four longest ones which had
nothing on them,and there were four of the short ones on the
exhaust side of the heads that had been ground down a little
bit(I assume for clearance). The nuts were not all the same either,
the nuts under the valve covers were regular five sided nuts and
the ones under the headers were like a twelve point star nut.
Should I leave the studs in the block and re-use them and the
nuts and just assume that they are all ARP? Or should I take out
the studs and replace them with ARP bolts? Is it normal to use
studs on the heads in place of the bolts?

Thanks
James

 

[1badTTA]

Studs are actually better than bolts, but are harder to work with since they require you to pull the heads strait out. If you remove the studs (2 nuts jammed together) they will have no bad side effects.

Since only 1 length of stud looked different, I would ASSuME that they would be fine to use again. In theory all the ARP bolts and studs are reusable without problems.

As for the different nuts, not to worry. They all hold the same.

Funny, as many HG's as I have blown, I only blew one to the outside and it was the #3 cylinder and was at the track with Direct Scan recording the run with absofu*kinlutely no knock or retard. Go Figure!!

 

[turbov6joe]

If I said this once, I've said it a million times and swear by it....Once you break the original head seal, you can NEVER get them to seal as good as the factory did! I've tried TTY bolts, ARP bolts in every tensil they make, ARP studs, torqueing and re-torqueing, all kinds of thread lubracant, a zillion different certified torque wrenches, heat cycling, tightning in 10 cycles, O ringing, decking the block and heads, sealant, every brand of headgasket known to man with the exception of the stacked steels, bla bla bla, and nothing.....I have a wall of blown headgaskets to prove it. All of this and I was only running 23 psi and VERY little to no KR at any given point with EGT's only in the high 1500º range. The next time I blow a headgasket I'm using 8 certified wrenches and 8 guys torqueing in unison...that aughta get'er done Now that I have a head porter that does UNREAL work and want to get mine done by him, I can't blow a headgasket for nothing....short of purposely blowing it doing somehting stupid. My luck I'd try to blow one and drop the crank out the bottom of the motor and take out the tranny and rear while I'm driving over it....

 

[Razor]

Get rid of the studs and go to bolts. They are finiky to torque down. I actually have read where they needed to be torque'd in the oppossite direction outward to inner.

My buddy bob with a TTA, we took the studs off and went back to TTYL bolts..no more blown HG's since Feb this year. The TTYL bolts on my factory motor clamp just fine, I have never blown a HG yet.

I tend to build them as close to GM as possible..it works..the aftermarket stuff can sometimes get you into trouble.

Also, James, inspect your #3 exhuast lobe on the cam. Make sure it didnt get damaged. A lot of times when number 3 goes out..the HG follows..

You can do a simple inspection by pulling that lifter and assuring it doesnt have any abnormal wear.

Lastly..that car have a power plate on it? If it doesnt, get one.

Julio

 

[turbotaone]

Thanks guys, I think I'm going to go with the ARP head bolts
from Johnsperformance, mainly because it was a real bitch
getting the passenger side head off, I had to lift it straight up
and then twist it side ways and it still kept getting snagged on
the AC box. I will definitely check the no.3 lobe(thanks razor)
and yes I do have a powerplate. I just don't know what made
it blow, the car was running good that night, the O2's looked
ok(high 700's)on the previous runs. You might know, the one
time that I'm not watching my scanmaster it happens. Oh well,
sounds like no matter how careful you are you can still blow a
HG for no reason I would like one of you guys to identify
the HG that blew(just curious),I think it's a stock type. Here are
the numbers that were on it, 3797 followed by a circle with a
V in it. Should I just use a stock intake gasket? and there should
be no gasket(just silicone) on the headers, right?

Thanks again
James

 

[Turbo T/A 1543]

#3797 is a Victor (Napa) gasket part #. Good Luck!

 

[turbotaone]

Thanks Turbo T/A 1543.

James

 

[1badTTA]

You have a number of options on the intake gasket. Buy another GM one, buy a FelPro replacement one, buy the 2 piece Felpro gaskets and cut you stock one to only use it's valley pan. I use the FelPro one piece with no problems. HTH

And yes turbov6joe you are right, once you blow a HG once, it is all down hill. You will never get it to seal quite as good as the factory did. However I have had really good luck with the stacked Steal Gaskets with the silicone. They don't tend to disintigrate the gasket just past the fire ring and leave you with a really weak spot waiting to blow (what happened when I was at the track running 110 octane with absolutely no knock and blew #3 down by the header).

As for the studs, I would probably just remove them and order the ARP bolts. just for ease of maintenance.

 

[turbotaone]

Hello 1badTTA, I know what you mean about the factory gaskets
deteriorating, mine had several bad spots on them, mostly around
the fire rings like you said. I'm going with the steel shim type from
RJC Racing. Also, do you think that I should have my headers Jet
Hot coated while I have them off ?

Thanks
James

 

[1badTTA]

Originally posted by turbotaone
Hello 1badTTA, I know what you mean about the factory gaskets
deteriorating, mine had several bad spots on them, mostly around
the fire rings like you said. I'm going with the steel shim type from
RJC Racing. Also, do you think that I should have my headers Jet
Hot coated while I have them off ?

Thanks
James

It isn't a bad idea, just make sure you decide wheather you are going to grind the header or skip the six washers before you have the headers coated. I really can't tell you if there really is a performance gain from coating the headers, but it can't hurt. Your decision.

Sounds like you aren't in a hurry to get it back together. May as well do everything you can within your budget while the heads are off. Have you replaced the springs yet? If not, it would be a really good time for that too.

 

[Razor]

Plenty of fast cars running the regular Felpro's and arp bolts no problem. I rather blow a HG than a hole through a cast piston. Call it a fuse.

Sometimes detonation takes its toll over time.. you may of had the one last straw deal. And jet hot has issues, on is they coat the inside of the header, so there is a possibility of it flaking and going through the turbo..can it happen?? dunno..will it damage the turbo..dunno..Plus you glow the headers..the coating is toast. Only the 2000 degree black holds up. My EGT's before the turbo run about 1600-1650.. thats plenty hot.

Save your money and put an alcohol kit on it. Keep the procedure simple, make sure your deck surface has ABSOLUTELY ZERO OIL RESIDUE or the gasket wont stick and you know what happens next. I go through a couple cans of the autozone brake cleaner and have the surfaces clean so it will rust in a matter of minutes..Do not go crazy on anything that gets put on the threads, it can seep under a gasket..then you know what.

Get the heads inspected for cracks between the valves and surfaced..cleaned..springs checked/replaced new umbrella seals..oil free the surfaces.. you'll be good to go.

reassemble.

Remember it doesnt have JE or Ross forged pistons..dont go too crazy with the head gasket .. its a safety valve.. trust me on this.

Julio

 

[turbotaone]

Hey Razor, I've decided against the jet hot on the headers,
it cost too much($200+shipping),which I can put towards a
alky kit. I will have the heads checked, supposedly they
were redone about 8k miles ago by the previous owner and
they do have the Comp.cam 90lbs. springs along with a new
206 Comp.cam. This car had issues before I bought it, I was
looking though the old parts that came with the car and I found
one of the original pistons that looked like some piranhas had
chewed on the edges, it almost had a dome shape to it. It was
only the one piston, the other 5 were ok. I was told that the car
has a Reds XP fuel pump in it, the pump was supposedly put in
shortly after the car was bought new, so maybe the pump is
getting tired? I've checked the fuel pressure while under boost
and it seems to be alright. Oh well, if it goes lean again hopefully
your alky kit will save me. I don't want to go through this again

James

 

[1badTTA]

So what pistons are in it now?

 

[turbotaone]

I was told the pistons are GM replacements(10 over),here is the
part number on the empty boxes #24500125. If someone can
verify this part no. I would appreciate it.

Thanks
James

 

[postal]

Just a liitle food for thought.....


You guys ever hear of a dude named Grumpy Jenkins? He was the last guy to compete small block powered cars in pro stock. I read an engine building book of his a long time ago. He never ran head studs. He said manufacturers spend alot of time and money picking out the right alloy head bolts to use. They pick head bolts that will closely match the thermal expansion rate of the heads. So the clamping force will be even when the motors both hot or cold. He said studs are just made to be strong and will not match the expansion rate of the heads like stock bolts. This can cause goofy fluctuations in clamping force from stud to stud as the motor heats up.


Jason

 

[turbotaone]

Hello Jason, so do you think I should use factory head bolts
instead of the ARP head bolts ?

Thanks
James

 

[postal]

Dude Ive never R&R'd a set of heads off of one of these motors. I was just stating what I read in that book by Jenkins. It really cought my attention so thats why I remember it. If I had a motor with a popped gasket I think I would contact Jason Crammer. He suposedly has a head gasket set up that wont let go on you. I think most or all of those guys who are running in the 9's with 8 head bolts use this guys kit. I would deffinately look into it.


HTH: Jason

 

[Razor]

Felpros with stock TTYL or ARP's.

You dont want an excessive gasket becuase your not trying to run 35 PSI of boost.

My buddy Bob M had studs on his, he blew two head gaskets within three months..we used the felpro's from discount autoparts, and TTYL bolts..since Feb this year..no problems.

Jason...good post

 

[turbotaone]

Hey Razor, I removed the studs last night and started cleaning
the block deck, but I was having trouble getting it clean around
the four knock pins that center the heads, do these come out?
I pulled on one with a pair of pliers but it wouldn't move.

Thanks
James

 

[Razor]

I use brand new single edge "Razor"s and a lot of elbow grease. Your primary concern is the area around the water jackets and cylinder bores. So those pins do what ya can..

Be sure you tap the holes out..and no debris falls inside the motor. It can clog the pickup screen...lots of brake cleaner...or ALCOHOL

What else can I say