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Installed body bushings but have a question.

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cool 84

Got hotair?
Joined
May 27, 2001
Messages
3,045
I did #s 2,3,4,5,and6. I ordered the uppers for the MonteCarlo, ASSuming they were stiffer. Not sure if they are, and I used the pink stiff ones for the 3,4,and6 bushings.

Based on the last thread I was going to use delrin on the #1 and poly on the #7. It seems no one sells just one poly bushing, they want you to buy the whole kit. I finally found where to purchase the Delrin plastic for the front bushing does anyone see anything wrong with using it for the rear too, or should I go with factory rubber?
 
huh?

I'm not sure what method you used, but in the 7 years I've been working on G-Bodies, majority of people either use the full Energy Suspension poly kit or use stock rubber replacements.

In some cases, which I think is ridiculous, people have used hockey pucks.

I have installed the Energy Suspension kit on 3 G-Bodies so far, including my own. They last forever, retain their shape and resist fluids.

The objective is to tie the body to the frame and make the car more of a single-unit.

In every car I've done bushings in, there was a marked improvement in body panel alignment, ride and handling quality and the elimination of many creaks and noises.

I've never heard or read in any GM shop manual or otherwise that the durometer for any of the G-Body bushings were different from one another on a bushing-position to bushing-position comparison. I don't know of any definitive material outlining that the Monte Carlo SS bushings were any "stuffer" than those used on any other G-Body performance variant or not.

I've owned two Monte Carlo SS's, and while they tend to have all their bushings in place, there is nothing to say they are any stiffer than the ones the came stock in the Regals.
 
Hi Cool84,

Came across your post by accident - glad we connected.

The experience I've had with the stiffnesses of the corner bushings (#1 and #7) based on driving impressions from cabin NVH and steering response, is that the stiffness of #1 is far, far more critical than the stiffness of #7. Having said that, and given that the difference between the deflection of a Delrin bushing and a polyurethane bushing is likely to be far less than between a factory rubber bushing and polyurethane, I can't say for sure how a Delrin bushing would work on #7 since I've never tried it.

But it does seem to be a low-risk experiment to try, and I do think it will probably work well. As I wrote in the thread you referenced, I would just watch for any signs of undue stress being applied to the body, such as cracks at the tops of the A and B pillars. With Delrin at #7, and if you launch so hard that you pull the front tires off of the ground, you may also have to watch for an increased tendency to wrinkle the quarter panels. But at that point, you're probably ready for a serious roll cage anyway, and ride comfort is meaningless.

About the previous post concerning polyurethane working well at all locations, my guess is that the owners used stock suspension bushings and close-to-stock tires.

I can tell you that when I tried PU body bushings with 45-series Z-rated tires, and PU suspension bushings as well, the result was absolutely horrific. My teeth rattled with every irregularity in the road I traversed, and the steering wheel vibrated so badly that it was difficult to hold. To say that the car rode like a truck would have been a compliment. My next step was to revert to the factory body bushings and keep PU only at the #1 location, but even this combination is several iterations before I settled on the formula I presented in the other thread.

Cool84, I would also add that ride quality and steering response are highly subjective things, rather similar to the perception of the sound of the car's exhaust: one driver's idea of exhaust "music" is another's idea of raucous noise. You've got to try it for yourself and decide. It's possible, for instance, that you may find the Delrin bushings at the corners to be too stiff for your taste. Or, since the interaction between tires, suspension, and body-frame coupling is very critical, you may find that a different bushing combination works better for your particular setup.

As a general rule, I think I can say the following confidently: you don't want the cabin stiffly suspended right down to the road; you need a compliant, mechanical low-pass filter in the component chain somewhere. That element can be soft, stock-riding tires, or it can be soft, stock suspension bushings, or it can be soft, stock body bushings > close to the cabin <, but if you eliminate >all < of these elements and use stiff components in the entire NVH transmission chain, I'm quite sure the results will be disastrous, as I mentioned in my example above.

If you want the crispest-handling package possible, and a reasonable semblance of ride comfort, then I think the best solution is to make the compliant element the body bushings close to the cabin. Using stiff bushings at the corners does sacrifice some ride comfort, but the jump in handling/steering performance is so remarkable that a performance enthusiast (such as yourself, I presume,) would take that compromise in a heartbeat.

Best of luck to you! Write back with your results!

MAP
 
Thanks again for such a thorough post. The rears are so easy to change that I can always swap back to factory rubber in 30minutes if I need to. Actually, the fronts are extremely easy too.

I also ride on 45 series tires in front (Z rated so they're stiff) and 50s in the rear on 16" rims. Since the car has been down I've added much stiffer springs in the front, polygraphite front bushings, KB rear seat brace, triangulated front frame braces, new stock rubber bushings in the rear and boxed in the upper and lower control arms. I'm hoping the extra frame bracing and rear seat brace will prevent any body cracking. I'll definately drive it for a while before I take it to the paint/body shop.

My old upper bushings which looked fine while installed came out in a few different pieces on a few and most were soft and falling apart from past oil leaks.

I don't mind a stiff ride, but I absolutely hate road noise. I consider a harsh ride a mid-late 80s Vette.

BTW, I found a place in town that sells the delrin plastic so I should have all the bushings taken care of by this weekend. Now if I could only drive it. I feel like having some friends push it over speed bumps to see if all the mods have paid off. :)

Again, thanks for the great info!
 
bushing..

in the cars i've done Poly body bushings, none of them had poly suspension budhings.

I NEVER recommend Poly suspension bushings in anything other than the front sway bar endlinks.

I'd sooner use new rubber stock replacements or Global West Del-a-lum bushings in place of stockers.

Poly suspension bushings bind, that is the physics of it. I'll put cork in my ears if i have to to stop of ignorant yoddelling of how poly suspension bushings don't bind on the street and cause problems... they do and that's why I'll never use or recommend them.

You also have to consider, that if you're driving around with the original seat, which has accumilated 15+ years of use, that will also contribute to your "feel" of the road.

I just put in a '94 Camaro front seat...and I can say that I do feel the "road" a bit more since the seat is more firm and supportive than the "guts-coming-out-of-the-bottom" stock beat-to-hell seat.

If you install quality suspension bushings (like GW del-a-lums), good shocks (Tokico's, Bilstein's), and good springs (Moog, Eibach) then you'll have a good suspension and handling system.

If you want a cushy ride, put in stock rubber bushings, stock rubber suspension bushings, Monroe Sensatracs and stock rated springs, end of story.

You have to sacrafice a bit of the comfort if you want an edge in the performance realm... unless of course you want to pony up $40k+ for a new Vette..all the work is already done for you.
 
I have a couple comments. First, I have first hand experience in poly FRONT end bushings. I know the graphite impregnated ones don't squeek and they surely don't bind. I chose factory rubber for the rear suspension because I have no personal experience with poly in the rear and nearly everyone says it will bind.

You have to sacrifice a bit of comfort, true, but I'm trying to keep that to a minimum. I'm trying to get the best performance for the least trade off in NVH. In my opinion everything MAP has said makes perfect sense. If you have to compromise in bushing stiffness, do it at the ends where it has less effect on the cabin. It also seems the ends are more important to be tied down solidly because that's where most of the flexing is. I could be wrong on this though. I think replacing the upper bushings with new ones and adding all of the missing bushings should be more than adequate in the center of the car.

Before my car was a rattle trap. Hit a bump or railroad tracks and the car would shudder and squeek and make all kinds of horrible noises. I found missing front end bushings, most upper body bushings were gone, and the rear deck had a crack from the previous owner. I'm mostly trying to tighten the car up so it doesn't feel like a POS and when I get done spanking a Mustang or F-body in the 1/4 I can spank them in the twisties too.
 
Greetings,

FWIW, and hoping this may be helpful to other suspension/chassis tuners, here's what I've done to the car:

Frame/body:

1.) 1" x 3" x 0.120"- wall rectangular steel tubing attached to
bottom of side frame rails, extending from front wheel wells
to just in front of rear tires.

2.) Front frame triangular brace.

3.) Front fenders with original inner well removed from inside
fender and reconstructed with 16-ga sheet metal, to provide
absolute maximum inner clearance for wide tires, and to
improve fender rigidity.

4.) Trunk area reinforced with 1"-dia, 0.060"-wall steel tubing,
running from base of C-pillar, down to trunk floor next to
#7 bushing mounts.

5.) Rear seat area completely skinned with 16-ga sheetmetal.

6.) Diagonal braces at top of radiator support to inner fender
wells added. (Mysteriously, the car didn't have them
originally.)

7.) Solid Delrin bushings at #1 body location.

8.) Stock body bushings for a 1978 Malibu, for locations #2 - #6,
top/bottom all, plus #5.

9.) PU bushings left over from an Energy Suspension bushing kit,
at #7.

10.) Car weight with 1/2-tank gas and no occupants - 3,250 lb.
Weight distribution: 52% front, 48% rear. Lots and lots
of work, and more than a little money, to achieve this weight
distribution.

Suspension:

1.) Polygraphite PU bushings at all points, save for upper front
control arms, and upper differential case. There - original
factory rubber. Even though complex movement of rear
control arms could theoretically cause binding, I've never had
the slightest indication of such, even when introducing severe
roll to the rear by traveling over 6"- tall curbs and the like.
The PU suspension bushings are now on their fifth year of
use on the car.

I've heard countless warnings of PU bushing binding on the
G-bodies, even from some very well respected names, without
hearing a shred of evidence to support the claim. I think the
presumption is that a bushing which is stiff compared to
rubber, and which rotates instead of torsionally deforming as
does a rubber bushing under normal deflection, creates the
impression that it must bind once twisted in a side-loaded
condition. Again, on several G-bodies that I've tried, I've
never had this problem happen.

Does anyone out there have any proof that they do bind?
While I can't offer definitive proof that they would never
bind on our cars under * every * conceivable circumstance,
I don't buy the claim for one second that the bindings must
bind "from the physics of the situation." And, by the way,
I'm a physicist.

2.) Lower front control arms lengthened 0.56"

3.) Upper front control arm cross-shafts lowered approx. 0.70".

Alignment settings: +1/16" toe-in, +4 deg caster, -1.2 deg
camber.

4.) Approx. 420 lb/in front springs, cut down from originals.
Front ride height approx. 1" lower than stock.

5.) Bilstein shocks at all corners.

6.) 1-5/16" Hellwig solid front sway bar, with PU bushings
at all attachment points.

7.) Firestone SZ-50 255 - 45 ZR 17" at all corners, no contact
except imperceptible rub on sway bar at full steering lock.

8.) Guldstrandt 35PSI Saginaw 800 steering box.

9.) Rear control arms fully boxed.

10.) Lower rear attachment points for rear lower control arms
dropped by 2" by welding extensions to axle brackets.
(eliminates roll-understeer designed into rear by GM, and
creates 125% anti-squat at stock ride height, vs. 50% anti-
squat designed by GM.)

11.) 138lb/in linear springs for rear.

12.) Custom 1-1/8" Hellwig sway bar for rear.

13.) Baer racing "touring" disc brakes at front; stock light-alloy
drums at rear; adjustable rear proportioning valve.

The results of all of these modifications: two racers have driven this car. One is a cricle-track guy; the other a drag-strip/road race guy. Both independently told me, that the car feels very, very much like a C5 Corvette. Since they've both driven C5's and I haven't, I can't make the direct comparison, but from all that I've read and heard, it sounds like getting a G-body to behave anything like a C5 in the ride/handling department is a major accomplishment. The only quantitative data I have is 0.97g steady-state cornering acceleration (although this is with the tires worn with not much tread depth left.)

"Ordinary" hot-rodders that have driven the car, who are used mostly to '60's through '80's performance cars, just shake their heads in disbelief at the way the car handles and rides.

My point of writing all of this is not to blow my own horn - apologies in advance if it comes across this way - but my intention *is* to share a formula that works exceptionally well with the readers here, so that may benefit from, and hopefully improve on, the combination which I've found works best for street handling/ride/performance on the G-bodies, after some 19 years of experience. And even what I've described is by no means the limit - but further modifications will tend to involve much more work, cost more money, and will tend to intrude in the cabin space.

Best regards!
MAP
 
I'd have to agree, I've noticed no binding or "rough" ride from using Poly bushing and mounts. There is no rubber anything in my car anymore(although I forget whether the top of the front shocks have rubber bushing or not), I even have Polyurethane tires.:eek:
Just kidding about the tires, :D
The car is very tight and responsive, and, doesn't squeek. Changing the front lower control arm bushing made a huge difference in steering stability.
 
jezz

ok, i know nothing lol

:eek:

I have NEVER in the 7 years of reading, working or researching G-Bodies come across a suspension/chassis modification layout such as yours MAP.

Since I'm web admin for G-Body.Org, if you could, would or want to document, illustrate and provide the rest of the usually gimmick-suckered G-Body public a in-depth foray into your extensive setup, I'll put it up on the site for all to read.

I am definitely interested to see pictures of the modifications you've made, costs involved and how you developed your design and your R&D in your measurements and application.

After reading a portion of your article, I was anticipating to see you building a tube-chassis for the car after all that work lol

I'll discount what I've said, because I haven't been in a C-anything Vette, nor have I raced and all the G-Bodies I've been in have had stock bushings (sans poly body bushings, sway bar bushings and rear control arm bushings)... so I've gathered my info on a 2nd-hand account basis or from people at companies who sell suspension stuff. I'm inexperienced... wish I could afford more :\

I'm all ears and really wanting to hear more about your work. Edumacate me :) Please
 
Yes, me too,, and I'd like to see a couple pics of:

>1.) 1" x 3" x 0.120"- wall rectangular steel tubing attached to....



and the bracing in the trunk too.
 
Greetings,

Yes - I'm here only to share and help in any way I can, and of course, to learn too.

About pictures of all the mod's: I'm a bit embarrassed to admit that I don't have a digital camera to capture any images. The computer from which I'm writing is a bit old, too - but soon I'll be getting a new computer on-line which should easily support one of those new-fangled digital camera things...

But here's what I can do: I've documented all of the changes carefully for my own records. I can make detailed, dimensioned drawings of all of the mod's, scan the drawings, and mail them as JPEG's, PDF's, GIF's - what have you, basically.

How does this sound? If acceptable, where should I send the files? Also, any time frame for submission?

Thanks and best regards,
MAP
 
Hey I would email Dan G. above to get the prints hosted on a site.

Actual prints, with descriptions of what was modified and how to install would be much better than pictures for me. Got a toolmaker at work with nothing to do right now. :)

Especially looking at bracing for my use.
 
Just got the lower control arms boxed and they look bulletproof plus they weigh over twice as much. We have had some discussions on whether it is best to run all PU or a combination of PU and stock. Has anyone like MAP tried running a combination stock & PU busings and if so, how were they placed?

PS: We even welded pieces of pipe in the control arm ends where the bushings go through for extra strength. Don't know if this will help but we'll see.
 
proof?

I don't think that without back-to-back road testing by an experienced road course driver will the debate over which locations really do benefit from poly bushings.

As for reinforcing the stock control arms, if you're on a budget, its an economical means of applying a band-aid.

The rear suspension would benefit from the use or incorportaion of either heim type joints at the chassis side, or the use of tubular or aftermarket boxed arms.

I think overall, you have to ascertain what your application is. I drive my car every day..regardless of weather. It has to be durable, reliable and I don't want to be under the thing making chassis adjustments every day.

If you road race, then mods like those MAP has done, and/or going with parts from Global West or Herb Adams, etc.. are for you.

I think there is a fine line between what a "race car" truely is and what a "street car" is.
 
This is going to be a daily driver (but setup to handle) if I ever finish all the repair work. I'm installing one of the KB rear seat braces right now and should have the body bushings and lower control arms installed by next weekend. I'm trying to catch up to Cool 84 on these mods, LOL - our setups should be very similar.

Has anyone ever tried installing additional support using something like a 2" x 3/16" steel bar in the passenger compartment (at the bottom) to supplement the KB rear seat brace?
 
Re: ?

Originally posted by darkfa8
setup to handle what?


Corners.

If a Mustang can be made to handle, why not a GN? All the body/frame/suspension upgrades I've done should greatly help out in the cornering department while taking nothing away from straightline performance or NVH. I did save the stock front springs just in case. Got a friend to machine the delrin on a lathe for solid bushings on the front and rear. Anyone who has ever changed to a set of bigger rims and lower profile tires knows how much of a difference just tires make. The car has become so much more solid that now I notice how much my seat frame flexes when I sit in it. That's going to be my next project. Never noticed it before because the whole car moved around so much.
 
inquery..

What my inquery was was what kind of handling?

- for autocross?
- for drag strip?
- for street/highway driving?
- for aesthetic appeal?

I may not know all the math or exacting physics involved in the tuning of a automobile's chassis, but like any other "system" in a car, all the peices have to be tuned to work together.

To many people either go cheap or put a bunch of un-inter-compatible parts in and develop/create more problems than existed in the first place.

As for the Mustang guys, there are books written about handling upgrades that do work. In the majority of Mustang owners, the Poly bushings in the rear location specifically, create a very twitchy handling characterisitc when taking turns hard and fast..

From what I've researched and seen and felt with poly bushings is that they are primarily used well in compression areas like end-link bushings, body bushings where they are not stressed on a horizontal plane so much as a vertical plane. They are supeiror to rubber in terms of their durability, resistance to fluids and UV and they also retain their form much better.

I had a long conversation with Lee Thompson regarding this whole subject and it really comes down to what you want your car to do or accomplish, what you can afford and then how to integrate whatever you fabricate or install into a well balanced system.

With nearly any car, whatever you can do to reinforce the chassis is a plus. Just boxing the "C" portion of the stock frames will work wonders. However, you'll have to move all the brake/fuel/emissions lines outboard either using new lines or braided stainless lines...small concession for added frame strength. Also, on B-Body cars they have a strap of steel that connects from the engine crossmember to the front lower control arm rear mounting frame tab then to the inside of the inner frame.

Downside to our "type" of frame is it is thin "pickled cold rolled" steel. When you bend it in an accident, then try and bend it back, it will often snap.. bent frames are problematic because the creased or bent area is vasty more weak and prone to snapping.

Adding bracing to the frame rail ends with either boxed or tubular steel helps add rigidity (Jeff Davidson of Monte-Carlo list fame makes these pre-frabbed for $30 for front and rear).

Changing the roll-center or anti-squat characteristics is a good place to start if you're serious about chassis/suspension tuning. Its not hard to do and there are calculations out there to help you figure out where the roll-center is, where to put it and then how to adjust the suspension to change it (usually lengthening the rear lower control arm brackets on the axle housing).

As for the stock rear control arms, the uppers mainly affect pinion angle (which would change if you modified things to change the roll-center), and moreorless control the twisting motion of the rear.

As for the front A-arms... the UB Machine arms are thin, do not have the sperical del-a-lum bearings, do not have a bump stop to inhibit suspenion over-travel and require reaming of the b-body spindle for use with the large screw in type ball joint they use. The Global West arms are high quality... as with anything, you get what you pay for. Lee is frugal and critcal about what he buys, so am I. I won't buy crap or something that will do the job half-a$$ed. If you think the Global West arms are a waste, then obviously your application isn't as critical, and/or you don't understand the kind of R&D that goes into a product like that, and/or just because your wallet can't handle it doesn't mean its a part that isn't worth its weight in cash and performance.

If you're serious about tuning your suspenion, read good books, talk to people who run their cars in the competition you're interested in and get advice, insight and if possible seat time so you can get a feel for how it is "supposed to be" or "not be".

I have a lot to learn. However, I can say with confidence, that in the 8 or so years I've been a part of the G-Body community I haven't seen ANYone really dive into serious chassis/suspension mods unless they were building a race-only car. I'm open to information and proven results.

MAP, I'm awaiting you're information if you still wish to make it public. As soon as you release it to me, with your permission I can put it up on the Suspension section of the G-Body.Org website for all G-Body owners to check out.
 
I think, like you said stiffening the frame and body is all good with no downsides. That's what I concentrated on first. I think MAP's advice sounded very logical and that's why I went with all rubber bushings except for the very front and very rear which are solid. I have yet to drive the car but I don't think the solid ones on the ends will cause a harsh ride. It makes very good sense that if you're concerned with the ride to only uses poly on either the body or suspension but not both. I boxed in the upper and lower rear arms because I just couldn't justify spending the money on an aftermarket set when I could box my stockers in for under $10. Dragracing is still the #1 priority but I'm going to have less than $300 into the entire suspension, frame, and body and the difference should be dramatic. To go any farther would require much more money and probably wouldn't give a big enough gain to justify the money unless the car was for roadracing only. I'm just doing what I feel the factory should have done in the first place.

I almost forgot, to answer the question my goal is to have a good handling street car with very little compromise in the ride and comfort and dragstrip performance. I prefer a car that is neutral or tends toward oversteer vs the understeer from the factory so I plan on playing with the spring rates to achieve this if the ATR swaybar doesn't already do it.
 
Dan and I had this lengthy discussion last week. A lot of his opinions are the same as mine. To us, we prefer a car that can do everything as well as possible. I also realize that it is a lot of compromises. I do realize we are talking about a G body with a live axle and suspension design that was introuduced in 1958 on the fullsize Chevrolets. When I say compromises, I mean having a Buick that can hook up well to go fast in a straightline as well as maintaining decent ride quality and being able to go around turns without scraping door handles. The thing must also be able to stop. To this end after much research I now have the following:
b body spindles
Global West UCA's
Global West Del A lum's in the front LCAs
Moog 5660 front coil springs
Bilstein shocks all the way around
16x8" GTA wheels with P245/50R16 tires all the way around.
Energy suspension poly end links in the stock front sway bar
Stock rubber sway bar bushings
The rear suspension with have boxed LCAs with 1LE rubber bushings
The rear UCAs will have Moog replacement rubber bushings
I have added the frame braces
Stock rear sway bar for now (though I do admit I would like to try the ATR bar)
I am most likely going to go with the Energy Suspension body bushing kit. I would like to drive Dan's car first before I decide on that. Some future plans might include playing around with the geometry on the rear to move the instant center further forward to aid rear wheel traction. I would also like to experiment with different alignment settings on the front end. My car presently has toy status meaning that I dont have to rely on it for daily transportation any longer, so I should be able to experiment now without worrying whether I will be able to get to work.
 
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