Meth vs water?

[tsaltario]

So up here in Red deer, AB Canada, there are not a whole lot of people that know much about our cars. (not the technical side like you guys do!). I'm taking the car in next week to get some tuning done at the local speed shop, lightspeedinnovations.com. Looks like the guy knows a thing or two about fuel injected forced induction.

My question I pose to you.. in chatting with him, and telling him of my build-up, he asked why I wasn't running a 50/50 mix of meth, and water? He believes that water provides much better cooling than meth, and will keep the combustion chambers cleaner....

what are the opinions of the board members here? Run straight Meth/Alky? mix with H2O? Discuss here please.


so, yes, i've done a search, but thought I'd ask this question,

a: to find the answer

B: to let new members look at this thread, etc etc/

Thanks in advance.

Tom

 

[PaCemkr86]

i perfer straight meth

 

[BlackBandit]

I'm not sure how much of the 50/50 thing is do to safety concerns. I look at the guys making power and follow them. Sure, every now and then I have my own idea, but there's no need to reinvent the wheel. For what it's worth I don't think water burns and releases energy. I run straight meth. james

 

[Grumpy]

i perfer straight meth

car will run faster with it straight

 

[TurboBuRick]

The only reason I can think to add water is to bring up the boiling point.
No power advantage. Will make more power with streight meth. JMO

 

[tsaltario]

His thoughts for doing the 50/50 mix was for a cleaner burning engine, he feels it's easier to tune, since you're not adding another fuel, and was a bit safer as well.

 

[DeltaT]

I am planning to start out with a 75%meth/25%distilled water blend to get some cleaning/cooling benefits from the water.

Jim

 

[SouthernCal GN]

Throw a lit match into a puddle of water.

Then throw a lit match into a puddle of methanol.

That's the conclusion of today's lesson.

Water- in your radiator, your pool, or as a mixer in your Scotch.
Not in the alky tank.

 

[4-71/Z-28]

i thought i had read a few places that water does the cooling. methanol adds fuel and octane. if that was true i would think with straight water you could probably run 2-3psi over stock just because it would be like having a better intercooler, but with meth its seems that the sky is the limit, like running c16.

 

[BlackBandit]

Meth definitely cools the air charge. Wator may have a higher latent heat of vaporization. (I don't know for sure but I'm pretty sure) But meth has a lower boiling point. I think there are allot of things going on there that an educated man could explain, and definitely more going on than would appear on the surface. Again, look at who's running fast. My o2. james

 

[Underboost]

I run straight Meth.

 

[Quiky One]

Straight meth. For about a week after installing the alky the car would smoke under boost. Now that the carbon is cleaned out it doesn't do that anymore. This was with straight meth.

Jason

 

[TURBOELKY]

YOU guys are only looking at the aspect of meth being a fuel. not sure how you all did in science class, but get this.
1/2 meth as a fuel
1/2 water as more oxygen.
the reason you mix them is because you get both oxygen and octane when combined.
h20, hydrogen, 2 parts OXYGEN.
at those pressures, the water atomizes, releasing the 2 parts oxygen. mix that with the meth, you dont need to run more fuel pressure to compensate for the added oxygen to the mixture. water has been ran in turbo motors forever, its when you shoot TOO MUCH water where it becomes a big problem. most people only run straight meth because they think its "better" but probably never tried mixing with water.
the only real way to find out is the dyno.

oh yeah, southerncalgn, I like that analogy
besides, nobody uses matches anymore.
try this analogy. You need oxygen in your blood, but if its directly injected into your blod stream you'll die. Drink water, the hydrogen is a carrier of the oxygen. As its released into your blood stream, you stay alive.....

 

[Razor]

This discussion always comes up.. someone says I run 50/50 or 70/30 or .... XYZ.. then you ask how fast is the car.. then you hear crickets cuase the science class is on a field trip.

The real class is at the dyno or track.. once you go to school there.. you wont play with water. Until then, keep reading import forums and the majic of apexi mufflers and water injection

There are circumstances whereby water injection is beneficial. Or having to run a mix is needed. But none of those have anything to do with maximum power output.

 

[SouthernCal GN]

try this analogy. You need oxygen in your blood, but if its directly injected into your blod stream you'll die. Drink water, the hydrogen is a carrier of the oxygen. As its released into your blood stream, you stay alive.....

Last time I checked, O2 exchange happens inthe lungs when you breathe, not when water is prrocessed in the body.....and ANY gas introduced into the bloodstream directly can embolize and cause death..

 

[TURBOELKY]

Last time I checked, O2 exchange happens inthe lungs when you breathe, not when water is prrocessed in the

no no no, lungs are only for inhaling burnt tire fumes, mari j, and tobacco. Otherwise they are useless..


the only real way to find out is the dyno
I did mention that.
there is a guy that goes out to irwindale, has a mustang running in the 5's in the 1/8th. Has a big water tank in his car, but thats a different beast.

 

[BlackBandit]

TurboElky
I believe, and I've been wrong before, but I'm pretty sure a methanol molecule and a water molecule both contain one oxygen atom. H2O is 2 parts hydrogen(H2) and one part oxygen(O).Another thing to note is that the more pressure water, or any other liquid is under the HARDER is becomes to vaporize. (which is the point of atomizing liquids) Water will remove more heat when it converts from liquid to gas, (look up it's lhov) but it also boils at a higher temperature which means that it works better in an enviroment that has more heat which isn't necessarily pre-turbo, especially with a big front mount. You definitely do not want liquid water in your combustion chamber. You are right about one thing though, I didn't do very well in science class. Or physics class for that matter. james

Edit: also it should be noted that when water evaporates, vaporizes, atomizes, whatever, it doesn't release ANY oxygen. It just changes it's physical state. If it released anything that would be a change in it's chemical state.

 

[TURBOELKY]

wrong or right, the only way would be on a dyno to find out which is more effective. at least we are all learning science here, which is a good thing i'm not going to argue with your posting, were probably both wrong but I would try both. and water turns to steam under those pressures. Kind of like a steam freighttrain. those things make a little power, just a little bit different application

 

[Mr.Spool]

seems to be quite a debate on this topic.the water/alky mix talked to my knock sensor the straight alky did not.once one starts trying to add boost and timing,combined with fluctuating air temps the weakness will show themselves.then taking the car to the track and breaking down the ticket will educate anyone,there is a reason most prefer the straight alky,it doesn't like to detonate!

 

[SouthernCal GN]

wrong or right, the only way would be on a dyno to find out which is more effective. at least we are all learning science here, which is a good thing i'm not going to argue with your posting, were probably both wrong but I would try both. and water turns to steam under those pressures. Kind of like a steam freighttrain. those things make a little power, just a little bit different application

Steam in the combustion chamber quenches the flame front; in effect, killing the very chemical reaction that produces power in the engine.

Dyno numbers would be great, but real world applications are the true test, as there are situations that simply can't be replicated on the dyno.

straight meth for me......in a dirty overflow jug