New guy looking for some advice

[MadMike]

Hey all, I just picked up my first Grand National. its an 87. Well along with my car.. the motor is apart so im going to put it back together, but since its all apart, I would like an 11 second track car, and 12 second street car. Ive helped my buddy RKturbo6 here on the board a bunch with his GN, and im no stranger to building up cars and turbo cars.

ive been reading alot on gnttype.org, and alot of other websites as well. I don't plan on going back into the motor once ive built it back up and put it back into the car.

I know this sounds a little hasty, but was looking at TE34 turbo, 50 lbs injectors, 3 inch downpipe, 3 inch single exhaust, stock intercooler(with upgrade elbow), stock intake(ive heard of some plate that does wonders.) stock converter, i have no idea on my tranny but if its all stock then I would like to put a shift kit in but, who knows.

my other main question is, Ive been looking at camshafts for a bit now and being im new to this, i have no idea what im looking for and what would be good for my plans. I have a stock cam with the motor, as well as some other high performance one that I know nothing about. it says 266. 62 H R and 62169. no idea on anything about that cam. Who all makes cams for these cars and who's good.. The only reason im looking is cause the motor is apart...so why not. of course with the cam i would get springs, and some other stuff, but im looking for some info right now.

might seem kinda lenthy but, any advice would be greatly appreciated. or if someone could point me to a very detailed recipe of a 11/12 second car, that would be great. I plan on driving this car everyday, and also dont mind a little driveability loss, but not where im going to hate the car. (been there, done that.)

 

[denn454]

the beauty of our engines is there is really no need to build up the engine to run low 12's. personally if i had to rebuild a motor, and i don't know what your budget is, so i'm going to assume lots I would start with a good strong running motor. if you can or would like to bore it out a bit, its not going to be a huge difference, but every little thing counts. as for the cam, i personally have no idea what you have, i think rjc sells a lot of different cams, you might find something there, they advertise here so you can find a link on the main page... personally i'd love to do a bigger cam, something that sounds good at idle helps out with the performance, lets face it, cams are cool. but inside the engine thats more than you will need to do, but if you can do it, you'll probably be glad you did. its a v6, and your not going to get a ton of power out of just the engine. i'm definatly not saying don't try though.

your plan looks good, but i think a te34 is for a 84-85 gn, not what you want. you should probably be looking at something like a ta-49 or te-44. those are "small" turbos but are still better than stock. and will get you the times you want. something a bit bigger might not be a bad choice either. i dont' knwo much about all the different turbos, sometimes big numbers mean there bigger, somethimes in the case of a ta45 or whatever it is the numbers don't mean anything. so wait for someone else to give their thoughts on the turbo.
50 lbs injectors, 3 inch downpipe, 3 inch single exhaust, stock intercooler that all sounds good. the plate thing is a rjc powerplate, i've heard both good and bad about them,they even the flow of air to all the cylinders. there are prelims (right before the manifold) that claim to do that too. the stock converter will get you down to those times, but personally i'd go with a 2800-3200 stall converter, anywhere in that range will work good for you.

a rebuilt stock tranny will hold up, i'd go for a sfift kit though. and don't forget about a drive shaft loop.

other than that i think you will be suprised how fast your car will realy be if you just put it back together, 12's really arent' too hard for most of these cars. then you have the few like mine that won't run good no matter what i do to it... good luck!

 

[azgn]

do not even think about using anything but the stock cam for your goals....new springs and go....these cars do not respond to "cams" unless you have a very large supporting cast

give John Craig a call and ask him about the TE-34....you might be surprised what he says (John will say that is the "best" turbo money can buy for a street type car.......)

it'll be good for 11's with the proper fuel upgrades, exhaust upgrades, intake upgrades (something like a big neck IC and K&N)

do the suspension, get some sticky tires and good gas and have fun

 

[MadMike]

Well, the pistons and rods i have for the motor I hope they check out ok. I will most likely just put them back together without any issues.

I was looking at Postons and they offer a cam for 139 which says is great for mostly stock cars. I see it as, since im there, i might as well... Stock cams were designed with other ideas in mind as well, like emissions and what not. Ive built a few cars and i think i can do a mild cam without the other hoopla.

The car also came with a TE-62 which now ive read is a common bearing failure turbo... which i was told the bearings hadent failed, but the turbo was using oil. I think this is too big for what im looking for, and wouldn't be a bad idea to sell and get a 44.

Other thing that I was told about was LT1 valve springs. I think i can still get my GM discount from my old job at Cadlliac. if someone has any susgestions as well on this i might be able to score these for a good price.

 

[MadMike]

Originally posted by azgn
do not even think about using anything but the stock cam for your goals....new springs and go....these cars do not respond to "cams" unless you have a very large supporting cast

I am curious why you say these cars dont respond... and what about them does that. Im not trying to challenge someone's knowledge, im just trying to find out whats a good choice since i have this all apart. Afterall, thats why i joined the site.

 

[Topjimmy]

Many members here have run the stock cam deep into the 11's, some even further. It just flat out responds to additional boost and the relatively low rpms these engines turn. Too bad it's discontinued. I've run a Modern Muscle (Full Throttle Speed & Style) 210/205 and a Comp Cams 206 from Cotton's Performance. Both are very simular; smooth idle, decent power sticks. The old-style LT-1 spring is rated @ 100 lbs. and works good as long as all of your lifters rotate. These blocks eat juice cams if there is core-shift present.

HTH - Jimmy

 

[MadMike]

I have the stock cam as well, but I know it has 90K miles worth of use, and would be nice to have a fresh one in there. I have no idea where the lifters from the car are... or if they are even marked to match the cam lobes... so I was going to just get new ones, and new springs to go with whatever cam i would choose. How did you like the comp cams 206? Im still at a point where i have no idea what i should be looking for with my plans of 50 lb injectors, 3 inch exhaust, stock intercooler(with elbow) TE-34, walboro pump, and a custom chip to put it all together. I figured a mild cam would be a better then a stock one, but if the stock one is the best, even with 90K miles on it...so be it. Just dosent make sence to put it back in, since its all apart...

cam buttons? these motors need them for what im doing? or just spend the 16 bucks and why not.

 

[denn454]

i'd stay away from postons performance anything. they make good stock replacement parts, if i ever need door seals or that sort of thing, i'll go to them, but not for performance parts. I have one of their 3" downpipes that they say are absolutely awsome, i'm not very happy with it. it had to be hammerd flat on one side to clear the frame rail, still an improvement over stock, but thats something that shouldn't have had to be done, especially since the pipe was made with this kind of car in mind...

The thing you should really keep in mind is traction, and if its going to be driven on the street, handeling. a good set of sticky tires will be money very well spent if your looking for low 12's. and $100 in body stiffening bars from kirbans is well worth it, i have the rear seat braces, underhood braces, and something else i think. it handles really good concidering its size... i've been able to get .85g's on my gtech, not too bad for a buick...

 

[JToups386]

Although AZGN is correct in his cam statement, I would also suggest not using your 90k version stocker either. It would be silly not to replace it while it's all apart. He is correct in saying that you don't need a "big stick" to go fast with these cars. There are numerous mild "on the shelf" cam grinds available for our cars that have yielded excellent results for many folks. It all depends on your final goal. With cams, being conservative is the best bet.
The cam you listed sounds like a 266 Hydraulic Roller, however, there should be other identifying numbers listed with it.

Many Buick vendors offer good, mild cam choices. Just tell them your combo/goals, and lean towards being conservative, and you'll be happy. Be sure to account for your particular turbo, stall, head flow, injectors, and intercooler, since they all play a role in it. The common 212 grind that many folks use would be a good choice. And, the roller cam button is required for any cam you use. It's a $15 part just about anywhere.

I have a custom ground Comp Cam, however, my goals are high 10's, low 11's at some point. I also have a previous custom grind Comp Cam that I used in my previous motor, which was a wonderful street/strip grind that yielded high 11's w/ stock turbo. Email me if you want the specs.

 

[MadMike]

well, I think im pretty set on a TE-34, stock converter, rebuilt tranny with a shift kit, whatever injectors are ok for this turbo... 50lbs or whatever... im still learning the area here. Stock heads with whatever springs needed for the cam. Im gonna order the 340 pump and rewire kit tonight. I have a K+N, im looking at a 3 inch downpipe now, and then a 3 inch exhaust.

Ive seen a bunch of old posts about people liking their 206, and now you reccomend the 212. these are my goals or setup, and was wondering how people like them. and im assuming these are cams sold by Comp Cams?

my last question in my confusion.... i went to comp cams website and they list 1 hydraulic tappet cam. and 3 hydraulic roller? if these are just mislabeled. or im thinking of something else... where can i get these cams... I would like to order, get it... sometime this upcomming week as the motor will be together very soon.

 

[JToups386]

Comp Cams has always turned my orders in 7-10 days from when I order it. You can buy directly from them, unless they've changed their policies. Or, many of the Buick Vendors can order it for you probably at a cheaper price than you'll get. I strongly stand by Comp's quality and tech help! I've never used their roller cams, as the possible gain has never justified the cost for me. I just "open the valve" a little more to make up for it.

There have been more cam conversations on this board than I can count, and the results vary from one end to the other. It seems to be a highly debated issue, and will probably never come to a true conclusion. There are folks on this board that have run 10's with a stock cam, but these are the guys that can usually build a rocket-ship in their basement. (high tech gurus). Then you've got the guys who just buy whatever the general masses use, when it's available on the shelf at any vendor. (Generic, but perfectly acceptable.)
Then you've got guys like me, who know enough to be dangerous, but are fortunate enough to have a friend who has studied cam design for the past 20 years, and developed spreadsheets to analyze how it will work in each range of "area under the curve", particularly for my application. (Friends are good to have!)
Now, having said all that, you still need to consider all the things I mentioned in my previous post. And--- if someone tries to sell you some big thumper stick, run away! You'll kill your driveability, and the car will run great, once you reach 80mph and up, but as we all know, the race is won on the bottom end, and the "biggest stick" will hurt you there.
Comp Cams has an excellent tech dept., and they are willing to help when you call. They will ask you the questions in my other posting, and they will help you design something thereof. If you try to just find "it" on their website, you probably won't find much. This is an area that you should call them, not to just order, but to have a consultation with a tech, and let them help you decide.
But, you also have the convenience option of calling one of the Buick Vendors that has already done the homework, and go with their test-n-tuned creations as well. As mentioned before, don't be surprised at the variations you'll receive though.

Whatever you do, just remember the core principals of --- "bigger is not better", and it's all about area under the curve! Where are you going to be running the thing? Mostly between 3000 and 5500 rpm, therefore, get a stick that fits that parameter.
I'd be happy to send you the specs that were designed for my previous motor, which ran 11.9's & 12.0's @ 112 w/ stock turbo @ 17psi, 3000 stall, extended stock location IC, and all the usual bolt-ons. The cam I used was virtually unnoticeable at idle, but sure woke the car up when the pedal was pushed to the floor.

Hope this helps ya', 'cause my fingers are hurting from being long-keystroked...

 

[JToups386]

Oh, I forgot one other thing I noticed in your proposed mods. The single-shot 3"? It performs well, but it's extremely loud! I would never want it on something I was going to drive daily, or even regularly. There are other equally performing options available, that certainly sound better, and are even cheaper.
Just something to consider, unless you're a fan of resonation and don't want to have conversations with your passengers.

 

[MadMike]

well, I appreciate the help, im sure this a severly beaten subject, over and over again. I will call comp tomorrow and see what they say I want, and just order from them or my local speed shop. If i order their complete kit, ie, springs, retainers, locks, lifters, cam, timing chain, should there be any problems with the setup that anyone might know? I was hearing of alot of people wiping lobes from their camshafts. I have already aquired a melling high volume pump for it as well, i heard this problem was oil related... anything else i can do to prevent this from happening?

 

[JToups386]

I've wiped several over my many rebuilds. The problem is they have no forgiveness in failed startups. In otherwords, the motor must crank immediately, and build oil pressure immediately. Many folks seem to fail to prime the system, per it being a pain in the @ss to do. It is crucial!!! The system must be primed by hand, w/ oil spurting from each push rod before you ever try to crank it. Make sure the crank sensor is in the correct slot, because the car will not start if it isn't, and you'll wipe the cam by turning it over and over w/o instant crankup. Use tons of Comp Cams break-in lube on the lobes, lifter bottoms, etc! I cannot emphasize enough, just how important proper preparation and break-in are for these motors. Their tendency to wipe cams initially is almost always user-error.
When you've checked everything, and feel all sensors are hooked up and correct ------ check it all again! You can never too safe!

I used the Crower Cam Saver Series, PN 66050x3-12, which have a machined groove on the side of the lifter, allowing more oil to get to the cam lobe at start-up and all the time, with almost no oil pressure loss. Look at them on www.crower.com

 

[turbov6joe]

I agree 100% with what Woody said...leave the stock cam in there and stick with the "bolt on" parts! Since I started playing with the TR's back in 1990 I've used MANY different brands/grinds of aftermarket cams and honestly cannot say that except for the 218-218 (in a 10 second car), did I see any significant increase in power. With these motors your money ahead to under cam than over cam....thus one of the reasons why I put my OE cam back in my motor (previously a Comp 212-212). Unless your planning on using a BIG turbo and ported heads, the BIG cams are only going to give you a rough idle (which it sounds like you want), poor vacume at idle, diminished streetability, not to mention the VERY good possibility of wiping a lobe due in part to the steep ramp profile of the higher lift aftermaket grinds. If your dead set on going to a larger cam, save your $$$ and buy a good roller and call it done....chances of a lobe wiping out are rare. Just as an example for ya, I went 120 MPH on a 100% stock motor with a TE44 (25 psi), 2.5" ATR DP, stock injectors, alky injection and did it through full exhaust. The potential to go fast is there, just find the right combo and tweak it to its max!

 

[JToups386]

I don't disagree with Woody or you Turbov6joe, however we seem to have a slight difference of opinion based on our own findings. However, have y'all noticed the info in the original question, whereas he has a stock cam w/ 90k miles on it? Going through the efforts of rebuilding/refreshing a high mileage motor and putting a 90k used stock cam back in it, is ludicrous, in my opinion. Therefore, why I made my suggestions to go with a mild upgrade. It won't matter if it's a new stock cam, (which would be hard to even find these days), or a mild aftermarket version, he'll still have to go through the maticulous efforts of prep work to make sure he doesn't wipe it. Unless of course he does as Joe mentioned, and buys a nice roller. However, it appears that money may be a factor here, and there are plenty of good cam choices for him to use, that won't have such a steep lobe ramp that it'll wipe 'em out. We're no longer stuck to the few choices of 10+ years ago when Ultradyne 276/266 was the hot ticket, and was prone to be wiped out per the overly agressive lobes. Comp offers some great conservative options, but that will give him a little extra "grrrrrrrrr" over his stocker.
My hat's off to people like you and Woody who can do "more with less", however, we've got a new guy here looking for ways to make a few improvements, and could certainly gain from a SLIGHTLY more aggresive cam, per not having the knowledge of 10+ years of being TR gurus. Right???
He'll spend the same amount of money buying a stocker as he will buying an upgrade, so to me, the choice would lean toward the extra 10-15 HP he may gain in an upgrade.

Again though, this is merely my opinion, and my methodology. You guys have certainly proven that you're on top of the game and mastered the art of making these little motors hum!

Joe--- 120mph on stock injectors? That's insane! Although I've seen a friend take his TTA to 11.30 @ 123mph with the help of a 100 shot of NOS, 6 years ago.
Different recipes, but all yielding great dishes...
Thanks for the input!

 

[turbov6joe]

Didn't notice the miles on the motor, I wouldn't put a 90k mile cam back in there either...that is unless of course it checked out to be perfect which is possible. I would for sure keep the aftermarket cam on the very mild side, say a 200-200 or a 210-205....212-212 at the most! Funny thing is I've used all of these aforementioned grinds to also include the 218-218 and cannot say that any of them were that great overall. The 218 was pretty radical in my 10 second car, but that was with ported heads, BIG turbo....etc. The only thing I disagree with ya is the comment about spending the same money for a stocker or an aftermarket. This is just my opinion so take it for what it's worth, but I've come to the conclusion that the new cam blanks that are used today are JUNK. You'll hardly ever see one of them with lots-o miles on it becase they die before they can live a happy/long life. Ever take notice to how many miles some of the members have on the stocker? I personally know a guy that had well over 250,000 on a basically untouched motor and the OE cam checked fine.
As for my TTA going 120 on stock squirters....that was pretty cool indeed!! They were maxed out duty cycle wise, and the FP was way up there, but the car ran perfect none the less...no detonation with the alky/pump mix. This past summer I played around with an old NOS kit I had and put down some good numbers doing so. With the base boost set at 17 psi and a 50-60 hp shot, the car ran almost 126 mph on race gas...damn that felt good too! I never had the balls to up the NOS jet, and was damn proud of myslef for holding back....I've been bit by the "go fast" bug for many years Anyhow, this year I vowed to myself to run the alky/pump and tweak that combo to 123 mph with the new turbo (TE45a) and the stock cam. I was of the opinion that the motor had it in it last year, but this and that prevented me from getting there....wonder if the slipping tranny had anything to do with it??? Lucky for me Eric Marshall is a good friend of mine that makes changes to my chip as the need arrises. I have a few things I want changed in the chip for the 2004 season that should get me real close to that 123 mark.
BTW, I noticed that your missing the torque # in your sig. If I were a betting man, and based off of your HP #, I would say mid to high 600's with the converter locked. With the TE44, stock converter locked, and alky/pump the TTA made 426 hp and 617 lb-ft...so you should be way up in the 600's. My buddy has a Dynojet chassis dyno that I've made A LOT of pulls on with all my vehicles...so these numbers should be fairly close.