No crank condition

[MCH86GN]

I hope this is just the starter, but I have my doubts. I started my car and the IAC was jumping around 0 to 97, so I unplugged it and unwound the wires a little and then I noticed that my oil sending unit was unplugged from its connector. At that point I had to shut the car off and plug it back in once the car cooled a little. Scanmaster is working when the ignition is turned on and PL. The PL showed a EEPROM fault, however, I couldn't get the fault to set again. Maybe the ECM is crap, but it appears to be reading all the sensor inputs ok and displaying them on the PL and SM. The starter not even engaging, I can hear the click of a relay in the dash, but it won't turn over. So it is either the starter or the ECM or the TT chip. The code was a 51 and said the EEPROM maybe unplugged. If the limp home mode chip is faulted will it cause the same thing? Anyway, I have another ECM as a backup, I have tested it in my car before I bought the PL and I can try a different ECM and then starter or vice versa. I think I will try the starter first, then the ECM. After that, I will have to start checking the grounds and ohm out the harness. The joy of owning a Turbo Regal.
Any suggestions.

 

[buickGN3:16]

Make sure the starter selinoid wires arent loose first before u pull it off & possibly unplug the main harness from the ecu & plug it back up just to be sure. Just some thoughts


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[MCH86GN]

Make sure the starter selinoid wires arent loose first before u pull it off & possibly unplug the main harness from the ecu & plug it back up just to be sure. Just some thoughts


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I did check it, it appears the wires are on the solenoid. Before I unbolt anything I am going to check with my multi-meter and make that I have vbat at the solenoid. Even though I only seen the EEPROM fault once, that one has me worried. Let's rule out the simply stuff first. Just to double check I the chip, I am going to change a parameter. I tend to over think a lot of things and don't start with the simple stuff first. Just for the sake of contributing information, I update this thread as I check things off the list.

 

[MCH86GN]

Well, I haven't put the starter back on but I am pretty sure I found the issue. There is a stud on the starter, where the vbat and two ignition lines(I presume) attach to was lose.


I attached a picture of the lose stud and nut and the starter didn't engage with stud lose like this. However, when I tightened the nut on the stud I tested the starter and it worked fine

With the starter removed, I thought it was worth wild to check and make sure the ignition line was transitioning to ~vbat when I turned the key to the cranking position. So I took a nut and bolt and tightened the battery cable ring terminal and two orange wires connected to a single ring terminal and connected them together so I could get power in the car. I then hooked the battery back up and I turned the key to the crank position and on my multimeter I saw the voltage transition from 0 to ~vbat and I took a picture with my phone. This was just to check that my ignition line was turning on when the key was in the crank position.

Now, I don't think I want to put that big starter back on. I am thinking of going with a mini-starter.

Anyway, this is nothing specific to a turbo Regal. I kind of freaked out when the my car would not start though and I had just started it and it was running. Albeit I was seeing some strange numbers on the scanmaster, bouncing between 0-17 of spark retard and then seeing an EPROM fault when I hooked my laptop up. Don't have an explanation for this. Once I get the starter on and get it started, I did pull the TT chip and re-insert to make sure it was seated properly, it might take a few minutes to get it running smooth again. Hopefully there is nothing wrong with the ECM or the TT chip.

 

[TurboDave]

Starters do go bad, and from your description it sounds as though yours has. Checking voltage at the starter isn't going to tell you anything about it's internal integrity.

The clicking you hear is the starter solnoid, and proves that the voltage is there. Just bite the bullet and replace the starter.

A bad ECM or chip isn't going to cause the starter issues you're suffering.

But of course the other odd symptoms you're seeing could be ECM related.

 

[dartguy340]

Years ago when I was rebuilding starters I would see that nut loose all the time.
I like the mini starters, they are much lighter and seem to work better than the originals too.

 

[King MoneyBanks]

A new starter will rectify your situation to a certain extent.
How old are your battery cables?




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[buickGN3:16]

bingo, the selinoid stud wires will get u evry time unless the titanic starter really has pooped out!! CSR mini


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[MCH86GN]

Starters do go bad, and from your description it sounds as though yours has. Checking voltage at the starter isn't going to tell you anything about it's internal integrity.

The clicking you hear is the starter solnoid, and proves that the voltage is there. Just bite the bullet and replace the starter.

A bad ECM or chip isn't going to cause the starter issues you're suffering.

But of course the other odd symptoms you're seeing could be ECM related.

Well I guess I must have did a bad job of explaining this. My starter is fine. I pulled the starter and I noticed that the stud on the solenoid where the battery voltage ring terminal and I presume two ignition lines on the same ring terminal bolt on was lose. The nut that keeps the stud tightened had came lose. So just to prove this was the issue, I connected my jumper cables up to a battery and then connected them to the starter. Then I jumper the ignition stud to the battery stud on the solenoid, not even a click. Then I tightened the nut on the stud repeated the process and the starter solenoid move the bendix to the engage position and it started spinning.

Now just to make sure the ignition wire which connects the solenoid was working, e.g., transition from 0 to ~vbat, I hooked up my multimeter and checked the voltage when I had the key in the cranking position. Oh and I also managed to take a picture of my multimeter while I was doing it, with my camera. I assume you thought that I had just connected my multimeter up to the wire that run to my battery. I didn't merely verify that I had voltage at the starter, I verified that I had ~vbat on my ignition line when I was cranking. Big difference.

One more time, the vbat and ignition lines stud on the solenoid was lose, see picture. Once I tightened, the starter worked. Just to be sure that the ignition line was going to ~vbat I turned my key to the cranking position, I saw the ignition line go from 0 to ~vbat. I was merely checking my ignition line, not saying well I have ~vbat on my ignition so the starter is good.

BTW, I never said I heard clicking. I said I heard a click, like a relay closing. I believe I heard the same click without the starter connected to the car.

Never said a bad ECM would have an effect on the starter. I was questioning where or not a bad ECM could inhibit the ignition line.

Sorry if I did such a horrible of explaining myself, not the best at articulating myself.

 

[MCH86GN]

bingo, the selinoid stud wires will get u evry time unless the titanic starter really has pooped out!! CSR mini


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It was as simple as that, the stud had came lose. That is what I tried to convey in the post with the pictures, not that checked to see if I had battery voltage at the starter and that "told me something about the integrity of the starter." I tried to clearly state that the stud was lose and that was the problem. I guess I did a horrible job. Next time I will just say, it was the stud on the starter that was lose. Not try and post pictures or explain that I checked that when I turned my key to the cranking position that I was ~vbat on the ignition line. Poor explanation, can lead to people thinking you're a complete moron I guess. I'll admit I make dumb mistakes and over look things. However, I thought I was fairly systematic in my approach to figuring this out.

 

[MCH86GN]

A new starter will rectify your situation to a certain extent.
How old are your battery cables?




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Actually the starter just had a stud lose on the solenoid. Once I tightened it, I tested it and it worked. Battery cables were replaced in 2010. Regardless I checked the impedance of the cables, old and new, and it was the same. Around 0.1 ohms.

 

[MCH86GN]

Just so it is clear for those of you who care, I doubt that would be anyone, the reason I got a no crank condition was because the stud on the starter solenoid was lose, see picture in previous post. This is the stud where the battery voltage cable and two orange wires, I presume ignition wires, that are on the same ring terminal connect to. I tested the starter with stud lose(the condition it was in while on the car), nothing, then I tightened it and the starter worked. Since I had my starter off, I did a cursory check to make sure my ignition wire was transitioning to ~vbat when I turned the key to the cranking position and it did. I was able to take a picture of the multimeter while holding the key in the cranking position. Sorry I implied that the integrity of my starter, by checking that the ignition wire transitioned to ~vbat when I turned my key to the cranking position. I don't want to spread misinformation. If you take your starter off and verify that your ignition transitions to ~vbat that doesn't mean your starter is ok, again sorry that I implied that. Again this isn't something specific to turbo Buicks. I only questioned whether or not the ECM could inhibit your ignition line from going high and that is the only reason I mentioned the ECM.

So as for the rest, I am not sure if I have an ECM issue or not. Once I get the starter back on, I guess I will find out. For the last couple of weeks my IAC counts have been jumping around. My IAC valve is fairly new, so I don't think that is the issue. I think it might be the connector, due to the fact that the wires are always pressed against the MAF pipe. So I ordered a new connector from Caspers and I ordered an angle IAC boss from RJC Racing. However, I should probably stick to just one topic here.

 

[MCH86GN]

bingo, the selinoid stud wires will get u evry time unless the titanic starter really has pooped out!! CSR mini


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Not to harp, but that was the whole point of posting that picture where the stud was lose.

 

[MCH86GN]

Starters do go bad, and from your description it sounds as though yours has. Checking voltage at the starter isn't going to tell you anything about it's internal integrity.

The clicking you hear is the starter solnoid, and proves that the voltage is there. Just bite the bullet and replace the starter.

A bad ECM or chip isn't going to cause the starter issues you're suffering.

But of course the other odd symptoms you're seeing could be ECM related.

I changed my original description. It probably still isn't perfect, but hopefully not so misleading to people that it is causing people to think I thought I was checking the integrity of my starter by "checking voltage at the starter". Even though I never explicitly or implicitly said that. I am not trying to be ungrateful or a smart ass, but your statement was insulting to say the least. I'm not saying it was intentional. The mere fact that I took the starter off and stated that the stud was lose, should have been a clue that I knew what the issue was and that checking that the ignition line was transitioning to ~vbat was just a cursory check since I had the starter off and it was a quick check. I guess I should have waited until this morning to post instead of last night when I was tired and in a hurry.

 

[MCH86GN]

The clicking you hear is the starter solnoid, and proves that the voltage is there. Just bite the bullet and replace the starter.

Like I said, I heard a click not clicking. Just to be sure, I just went out and checked again with the starter hooked up and there is a click. It's probably an ignition relay, could be associated with the factory alarm system which I have.

 

[TexasT]

So, did you hit the starter with a jumper cable to verify it spins? Didn't see where the starter spun.

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[MCH86GN]

So, did you hit the starter with a jumper cable to verify it spins? Didn't see where the starter spun.

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I sure as heck did. Using my jumper cables I connected up to a battery. I hooked the positive cable up to the stud and the ground to the casing. I used cable a with alligator clips at each in and connected to the stud where the ignition wire should go and then connected to jumper cable that was connected to the stud where the battery cable connects up. A few sparks flew and bendix engaged, or moved to the correct position, and it started spinning.

The good news, I know the reason for the no crank condition. The better news is that I am not putting that massive starter back on, I ordered a mini starter. Of course I will save the original starter, but I just don't want to go through the trouble of putting that thing back on. I don't have a lift, so it's on back to do anywork under the car. While I am waiting on the starter I sent the heat shield that mounts just above the starter to be ceramic coated. If nothing else it will look nice.

 

[TexasT]

I don't have a lift, so it's on back to do any work under the car.

Right there with ya. I've pulled many a transmission, fuel tank and starter on my back.
Cool deal on the starter. Gotta link?

Rich

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[MCH86GN]

Right there with ya. I've pulled many a transmission, fuel tank and starter on my back.
Cool deal on the starter. Gotta link?

Rich

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Yes, initially when I had the no crank condition I searched the forum and found a post from Charlief1 saying there were mini-starters on ebay. So I went there and searched and found one for $79, free shipping. As it turns out the post I read from Charlief1 is exactly 4 years old today. When I asked Charlief1 he pointed out how old the post was, but I told him nonetheless I did find one on ebay for $79. He said "They work well in severe conditions and high compression isn't a problem".

There are only 2 left for sale and shipping is still free. Here is the link.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/On-SALE-Min...nal-Turbo-GNX-T-Type-TTA-38L-V6-/251340616284