Put on your thinking caps here fellas...I need opinions!

[turbov6joe]

Some of you might recall me posting about my TTA using coolant, well the short of it was a leaking headgasket at one of the water jackets; not blown, just leaking. Coolant was being sucked into mainly cylinders #1 and #3 causing those jugs to go dead when running. I replaced the HG's and changed the oil which had very little signs of coolant in it and buttoned the motor back up. Well, right after throwing the torque wrench on the rocker bolts, I noticed that #1 intake rocker was loose enough to wiggle around fairly significantly. The rest of the rockers were nice and tight as one might expect them to be with the factory backlash. Anyhow, I dismissed this as maybe the lifter was pumped down from sitting and the motor was made ready for start up. Once running and all the lifters pumped back up, I had a BAD lifter/rocker rattle comming from #1....prolly that intake rocker that was loose. Now here is what I think, I need your opinions as well.

Like a fool I did not check push rods to see if they were all straight, and I failed to yank out the lifters to inspect them either....my bad for sure!! I did however look at the cam lobes the best I could and did not see any tell tale signs of wear or discoloration. The motor runs way too smooth for it to be a bad valve, so I'm kinda leaning away from that. The best I can come up with thus far is that is could be any of the following things:

lifter stuck in bore
bent pushrod
piece of debris under the rocker or rocker girdle not letting it seat all the way down.
wiped cam lobe
lifter took a crap
lifter is failing to pump up
lifter is worn for whatever reason(s)
Mr. Murphey is in my motor

One would think that if the cam lobe is shot, the motor would not run as well as it does. One might also conclude that because of all that non-compressable fluid in the cylinders, something bent. Figures it's on the DS where taking off the valve cover requires much more work. I plan on checking things when I get up Monday afternoon. I'm starting with the KISS things and working my way down. I'm praying that the pushrod is bent thus taking out preload, but that would be too easy. Any other ideas out there???

 

[trading t/a]

Ask Shawn 19TTA89

His car ran smoothed and pulled very good with a not so perfect cam and a Hula Hooping 49

 

[postal]

Wouldn't it be kind of hard to bend a push rod with stock cam and stuff?

If you think it may be a stuck lifter go get a can of Rislone(Reslone) cant remember for sure how its spelled. Used it on a crysler once and it really worked! Its like $7, you got to run the car for a good 15 minutes or so after you put it in to give it time to work through. That crysler went from sounding like it was comming apart to running like a sewing machine. It still sounded good several k miles later.

Got any kind of magnetic base dial indicator? Heres what I'm thinking: Try to measure the push rod lift (not vlave lift) on that cylinder and compare it to the other two on that side. Remove the rocker arms and let the pushrods sit w/o pressure in the lifters. Figure out a way to guide the push rod in a straight line and measure the lobe/pushrod lift and compare. The reason I say measure that instead of valve lift is because by removing the rocker arm and valve spring tension, then bent p rod or colapsed lifter shouldnt mess with your measurement. If the lobe seams ok then look into the other parts, if it shows up bad here though... . I was just thinking this may be a way to figure out if the cams bad or not by just removing the valve cover. I just dont know if you can get an accurate enough reading or not by trying this. The again if you have a lobe hurt bad enough you may be able to find it doing this and using a 12" ruler.

hth: Jason

 

[turbov6joe]

Postal,
You think like me, that was my next test. However, I messed with it some tonight before the garage heater ran out of propane and the temps dropped so low I couldn't feel my fingers (3º ambient outside temps right now). Anyhow, I removed the rocker cover and pulled both rockers off #1 and found that the pushrods were arrow straight. I swapped rockers for S&G's and the looseness was still there. Then I looked down into the pushrod bore with a bright ass flashlight and inspected the lifter best I could. It didn't appear collapsed, discolored, or stuck in the bore. I then disconnected the ECM wire and cranked it over both with and without the rockers on and found that the rocker in mention didn't have near as much lift as the others. So, with that in mind I think I've narrowed it down to either a bad lifter or flat cam lobe. I'm leaning to the bad lifter idea because even if the lobe ramp was literly knocked off or rounded, the base circle diameter should still be the same and thus the factory lash preload would still be the same and there would be some tension on the rocker. This damn rocker is so loose I can literly lift it up off of the valve! I also inspected the rocker bolt hole for debris as well as the rocker fulcrum point and everything else in between. A good buddy of mine that has 30+ years experience with race motors seems to think the lifter is bad. Although, when I use the rod to push it down the plunger seems resistant, it might be a whole different story when you throw the high spring pressures in there. Crazy thing is when I was cranking it over, on some rotations the rocker seemed to have had higher lift than other times....again making me lean to the lifter. It the lobe was bad, the lift would/should remain constant. Anyhow, I'm filling the propane tank and ripping the intake off ASAP to see what's going on in there....it's driving me CRAZY! My wife says I have OCD over it, I say it's my vicious curiosity driving me to go into the garage with single digit ambient temps....later!

 

[1badTTA]

BTDT!!!!!

I tried a Postons cam and within 1,000 miles it wiped the #1 exhaust (I think, it was the front valve/first lobe on cam, and I can't remember which order they are) and bent a pushrod and blew a headgasket all at once. Is this sounding earily familiar? I know it is to me. Anyways, it all sounds exactly the same and if you don't have a bent pushrod then your cam and that lifter are bad. Sorry. Good news is that you can leave the radiator in since it is only a V6 cam and is pretty short. Took me a good Friday through Sunday starting after work on Friday and finishing without rushing anything.

 

[postal]

I tried a Postons cam and within 1,000 miles it wiped the #1 exhaust

Wasnt some one on here a little while back asking about what to put into a new motor? It just seams like if you read on this board much you will hear about wiped cam lobes WAY to often. I have a motor ready to go into my car when I get bored or blow up the stocker. Problem is that it has an almost new comp 218 in it (3 passes). If I have half a brain I'll replace it with a billet roller before I put it in.

Jason

 

[turbov6joe]

1BADTTA,
Yours would be the same lobe as mine....#1 exhaust....yes, earily familiar is a good way to put it! I have a Comp 212-212 cam in there now and a 12k mile stocker waiting to go back in if this one is wiped. Between me and my pop we have used 3 different Comp cams with no wiped lobes and a few blown head gaskets to add to the mix. Between the two of us we've also used 2 different Lunati grinds and only 1 wiped lobe there, so maybe it's safe to say we've had good luck thus far with the aftermarket cams. To be honest with ya, I didn't even want to change the cam in my TTA. I was talked into it by a buddy of mine since we were doing a timing chain and had the motor out anyhow...not knocking him in anyway, I'm a big enough boy and could have said no if I really didn't want to do it; I just needed that extra push to put me over the decision edge
I'll know more about the damage or potential damage today as I'm ripping that intake off no matter how frig'n cold it is outside!! I have the propane tank with me to get filled on the way home from work and a 350,000 BTU heater to hook it to....hell, I might even pull the intake off this AM before I go to bed??? Stay tuned.

 

[FlyinGN]

Damn Joe, looks like that damn bad luck demon reared its ugly head again. Sound like a bad lobe. Id pull that cam out and put back in the stocker asap. I have a comp cams cam in my GN and its about 15k miles old.. so far no problems(fingers crossed)

Did you have the tap before you pulled the heads? Just curious..

BTW- I had a 70 Pontiac Lemans way back when I was 16 and it had a few wiped lobes amd the engine ran smooth as silk. No taps either.. go figure..

 

[turbov6joe]

Hey Frank,
When I pulled the car out of the trailer for a drive the motor was a quiet as a sewing machine. I drove it ~20 miles to meet some buddys for a beer and noticed that the motor was again using coolant. I then limped it home that same 20 miles and noticed that when I stopped and got out at the house, the tap was there....not too bad but there none the less. I then yanked the heads off, replaced the gaskets, and heat cycled the motor to re-torque the head bolts (open exhaust), thus the reason I could not hear anything going afoul. I was listening for odd noises but had a hard time hearing anything else. When I started the motor with the motor 100% back together I had the usual "sitting for a while in the cold" lifter tap untill they all pumped up. Problem was all but 1 got quiet and that's the one in subject. So, yes Mr.Murphey has struck again....not bad but again (I'm going to kill that MF'er if I can catch him). At least I didn't have a "bad" HG failure and pump contaminated oil through the motor taking out the crank, bearings, and the new turbo! Matter of fact, the fire rings looked great on both sides....just this one little area was jacked all up causing coolant to make it's way into a few jugs

 

[turbov6joe]

I yanked the intake off and found the #1 exhaust lobe damn near round...the lifter looked as though someone took a die grinder to it! So, now the motor is comming out for a complete overhaul; what a waste of time it was for me to get to where I'm at now. After having a few Clevite bearings crap out in my other cars, now I have to make the decision as to which bearings I'm going to use....Clevite "H" series or OE??? I also have to make a decision as to what bolts I'm going to use. I've read that the OE rod bolts are pretty good as is, so that means go back to OE stuff or ARP??? Having messed with these motors for 13 years now, I've come to the conclusion that most of the OE parts are pretty damn good......decisions-decisions. More than likely I'll use ARP main studs, OE rod bolts, and will prolly give the Clevites another chance for the rod, main, and cam bearings. I've also come to the conclusion that the machine shop I've been using might not have been setting up my motor to the specs I gave them. This go around I'm doing the work myself unless something requires machining; the search for another shop will commence then. If done by myself I'll know 100% it was done correctly. Now if I could only get an answer as to if the OE bolts are TTY and worthless once broke loose....anyone care to lend their opinions???

 

[postal]

Any chance of going to billet caps? I beleave in the girdles more than the caps but I heard you cant girdle a tta because the pan wont clear the cross member. Only reason I ask is because alot of tta guys are tip toeing on the edge or into the range where the gn guys say you need caps or a girdle. Problem is that all my buddies that have torn into motors went way over budget, and you got to draw the line some where. I personally bought a low mile used hipo short block for $600. Its got forged TRW's comp 218 and stuff like that. I love it when rich guys decide they want to sell some thing! Now I'm sitting here wanting to put a girdle on it and a roller cam set up. I'll probably wind up quadroupling the amount of money I have in it by the time it goes into the car. AND I'll still have to get into the heads . Damn you just put me in a bad mood! I going to go kick my wifes dog now!

Jason

 

[mark b]

Sparing you the boredom of recounting my tales of woe (whoah!), you *might* consider biting the bullet and sending the whole thing to a shop that really knows these motors. Not sure of your financial position, but in the long run it might cost you less.

I'd definitely do caps and arp studs, but as you know that requires a line bore.

Don't hold my feet to the fire on this gang, but I *thought* my machinist said if I wanted to go to ARP rod bolts, it required some type of machine work. Maybe that was part of the line bore proecss, or just part of resizing the rods?

 

[turbov6joe]

Mark,
I've built MANY of these motors with both good and bad results trying all the aftermarket parts available at the time. I once had a set of those billet caps walk so bad they warped into the shape of a magnet...they are not the end all/be all to the bottom end. The only luck I had with a stout bottom end was with a RJC girdle and billet caps.... bullet proof as could be all things considered. Right now the motor is a my buddy's shop having all new bearings put it in...should have it back this week (hopefully...it was soposed to be done last Wednesday). I'm about done with aftermarket cams, the stocker is going back in this time around! I passed on having the heads ported as the TTA heads look REAL good as cast. I was pretty amazed how well everything is port matched to the gaskets right off the shelf, and the runners are pretty smooth....mucho better than the 8445's IMO. This year my car will be back to a 100% OE short block with nothing but bolt on's and ARP head bolts to try and keep those suckers planted. If there was a girlde available for the TTA's I would be all over it....but there is not, so I might as well quit wishing. I was going to buy a set of the HR parts and Stuff motor mounts but will prolly have to pass for $$$ reasons. If I hadn't had the tranny take a **** on me last October, those would be a given. Momma is being as patient as possible with the spending, but is loosing her patience at a rather quick rate. When momma isn't happy, no one is happy!

 

[Razor]

Joe..
Your on the edge of the cliff..have your parachute..but are deciding whether to jump or not.

These motors at the fine line your on.. are a gamble. If you slowed it down a bit, it will last a long time. The cam problem as you know is self inflicted and can also have been caused by too much seat pressure on the springs.

If it were my car, i'd drop the pan, pull of a couple caps and do an inspection to the bearings and such. See what the consensus is there. Take it from there.

If you change bolts..get ready for machine work, and machine shop competency. The stock main cap bolts seem to hold rather well if you think about it. They've been on there for a long time and no issues. So careful what you ask for.. You put the studs on, they line hone the block, they screw up doing it.. you'll kill the crank and hurt a bunch of stuff.. they'll blame you for it.

The OE parts rock. Hell the rod bolts are SPS, and you havent spun a rod or anything running 125 MPH. If the bearings are scored and crank isnt from the metal, drop in a set of clevites and call it a day. Check your springs to assure the seats are not 120 lbs or something crazy.

Good luck.

 

[turbov6joe]

Razor,
The motor was inspected last week and everything but the cam bearings looked great! The cam bearings were showing normal signs of wear so it was time for new, and I had the rods and mains replaced with Clevites as well. I left all the fasteners as is, as I am also convinced that they are real good to begin with. I'm picking it up Tuesday after work and should have it up and running by the weekend. I forgot to mention that the crank only needed some minor polishing....$330 out the door.

 

[turbov6joe]

My buddy and I wrenched for about 8 hours Saturday night and got the motor and tranny back in the car and running. The motor runs smooth as glass, has over 17"s of vacume at idle, and is back to 100% stock internals with fresh Clevite bearings. With just a few odds and ends to muck with, the car is basically ready for the 2004 season. Thanks to all that voiced their opinions as to what the original problem(s) might have been....those damed aftermarket cams and their ****ty lobes!!

 

[postal]

If there was a girlde available for the TTA's I would be all over it....but there is not, so I might as well quit wishing.

Is it a matter of clearance between the oil pan and the cross member? Why couldnt a guy modify his motor mounts to raise the motor enough to clear? I mean it might suck a bit to do the work but man people put these drivetrains into all kinds of cars. What they have to go through has to be 100 times tougher than just raising the motor an inch or less. Just a thought and the more I hear of 9 second GN's with girdled 109 blocks.............. I NEED MORE MONEY!

Jason

 

[turbov6joe]

From what I understand clearance is the MAIN issue. Your idea sounds good, but why hasn't anyone else thought/tried that yet? Soposedly the polly motor mounts that HR Parts sells raises the motor some, I wonder if that would give the necessary space for the girdle??? I also understand that if you switch to an aftermarket "K" member, the girlde will clear.

 

[Razor]

Ahh you guys have me all confused now. I was going to put in a Comp 212 212 and now after reading this.. dunno.

Joe, were you using the sealed power lifters or comp magnums?

I'm putting on the heads I have and ported intake. thought a nice little cam could help.. humm..

Decisions...

 

[broke1]

One word on the cam Julio,ROLLER,and call it a day