Radiator renewal

buickin87

Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2005
Maybe it is time for radiator purchases for GN87. How about Griffin aluminium radiator(some "universal" model), which I would get with reasonably price?

How about the quality of material and work compared with F- body radiator, which is one of my alternatives too?

Is the 1,5" inlet(upper hose) an issue for the hose, because GN original radiators hose/inlet pipe size is smaller, 1.25"?
 
It's a replacment unit. Has INTERNAL coolers and of course you can run an external cooler too if you want. It's up to you. On my GN I am running both the internal trans cooler AND an external cooler. Or you can choose not to run the internal cooler. Your choice.
 
It's a replacment unit. Has INTERNAL coolers and of course you can run an external cooler too if you want. It's up to you. On my GN I am running both the internal trans cooler AND an external cooler. Or you can choose not to run the internal cooler. Your choice.


Since many use an external trans cooler anyway, can you make a rad with larger oil cooler & no trans cooler? That would be the hot item for me!
 
Dont mean to ruin a sale for you, but the F-Body radiator worked damn good for me, for $108 bucks at autozone. But you will have to either block off or loop the oil cooler, or run an external oil cooler. It has provisions for the tranny fluid cooler, but I ran an external one and bypassed the oil cooler. I never ran hot again, even in summer stop and go traffic.
And by the way, the number of cores doesnt really affect cooling. The F-Body has 1 big core. With 1 big core, the fluid speed drops really low, and as a result spends more time in the radiator, giving more time for thermal transfer.
What makes a radiator cool more or less depending on design, is total fin surface area (more than anything), the thermal conductivity of the substrate between the tubes and fins (aluminum uses thermally conductive epoxies to bond the tubes to the fins), and the material the fins and tubes are made of. Copper is almost 3 times as thermally conductive as aluminum, but surface oxidation kills heat transfer, and solder or lead are terrible conductors of heat.
The ability of a heat sink to pull heat out is measured with C/W, meaning temperature in celcius divided by watts of heat energy being dumped in . Years ago, we developed a folded fin computer processor heat sink that was as effective as the best prototypes in the world, at 1/4 the cost. I think the best number was .32. We had a big testing rig I made, that had a copper block filled with a series of large resistors, the mating surface was the same surface area as the chip, and the heat sinks were compressed against the surface of the heater with air cylinders and some special mechanisms. We developed many different types (I made the machine that made the heat sinks themselves)...aluminum base/aluminum fin, aluminum fin/copper base, copper fin/aluminum base, all copper, with many different fin designs. We had over 4 square feet of area in the size of a factory installed dell heat sink. Anyway, the all copper heat sink was by far the best, but the substrate became the main issue with every heat sink. We tried many things but ended up moving to other projects. I still think today that had we tried a graphite substrate, it would have improved quite a bit.
 
With 1 big core, the fluid speed drops really low, and as a result spends more time in the radiator, giving more time for thermal transfer.
Are you sure about this? I thought that heat transfer was proportional to fluid flow. You wouldn't slow down your radiator fan giving the air molecules more time for thermal transfer, you speed it up.
 
Are you sure about this? I thought that heat transfer was proportional to fluid flow. You wouldn't slow down your radiator fan giving the air molecules more time for thermal transfer, you speed it up.
Say you only have a radiator and a fan blowing through it, and a gallon bucket of boiling water. Dump that gallon in and let it sit for a minute and dump it out. Measure water temp. Do it all again except leave it in for 5 minutes. Which will be cooler?
If you had hot air flowing through the tubes instead of hot coolant, and ran cold water through the fins, instead of air from a fan, if you slowed the airflow through the tubes through some means of backpressure, the air inside would get colder than if it just flowed straight through.
The radiated air being blown through by the fan, and the radiator are 2 different things....conduction and convection. Water through the entire system is forced convection and the air through the fins, which is heated as it passes through, is heated by conduction. One is thermal transfer through a liquid and the other through air, and the 2 are grossly different in terms of thermal conductivity. Air is more of an insulator than a conductor.
Say you have enough fin area and enough airflow through the fins to dissipate X amount of heat energy, and it also takes Y amount of time for the temperature to be dropped to the temperature you want, with that many fins and that much conduction from the fan. If the fluid passes through too fast, it didnt have the time needed for X amount of airflow through the fins to dissipate it. You could blow the fan faster and faster and harder and increase airflow to the point its like a tornado, but it wouldnt cool the water in the tank any further. Conduction through air is extremely slow where conduction through fluids is very fast. By dissipating heat with moving air, it takes a long time, so slowing the fluid flow in the tank is needed.
 
Say you only have a radiator and a fan blowing through it, and a gallon bucket of boiling water. Dump that gallon in and let it sit for a minute and dump it out. Measure water temp. Do it all again except leave it in for 5 minutes. Which will be cooler?

The analogy does not work for a closed loop system.:confused: It's been awhile for thermals, but in the heat loss equation Q=(W)(cp)(DeltaT), where Q=energy,W=flow, cp=specific heat,Delta T=inlet-exit water temp, you can see that energy removal is proportional to flow. Obvoiusly the flows must be within reason or you get other factors such as friction losses that come into play.

If you make the water flow high and the Delta T low you maximize the heat transfer. And yes if you reduce the flow the exit water will be much cooler than the inlet temperature but heat removal from the system will be at it's lowest. Increase the flow and you maximize cooling, thus reducing the overall temperature more than if you reduced the flow.

Would you put a low flow pump to maxmize the time the water is in the radiator? No. This is why they make high flow water pumps.:biggrin:

Thanks:D
 
The analogy does not work for a closed loop system.:confused: It's been awhile for thermals, but in the heat loss equation Q=(W)(cp)(DeltaT), where Q=energy,W=flow, cp=specific heat,Delta T=inlet-exit water temp, you can see that energy removal is proportional to flow. Obvoiusly the flows must be within reason or you get other factors such as friction losses that come into play.

If you make the water flow high and the Delta T low you maximize the heat transfer. And yes if you reduce the flow the exit water will be much cooler than the inlet temperature but heat removal from the system will be at it's lowest. Increase the flow and you maximize cooling, thus reducing the overall temperature more than if you reduced the flow.

Would you put a low flow pump to maxmize the time the water is in the radiator? No. This is why they make high flow water pumps.:biggrin:

Thanks:D
No, I wouldnt run a slower water pump, because then the flow would decrease in the whole system, and the coolant in the motor would have more time to heat, negating the whole thing. You want normal water flow and speed through the motor, but more time through the radiator. No matter what radiator you run, the water speed through the motor will be the same. But the flow velocity through the radiator will be different.
And you can only make the Delta T so low with our radiators and fans.
At the trailing end of the radiator, yes, transfer will be at its lowest...thats to be expected, but, as you said "yes if you reduce the flow the exit water will be much cooler than the inlet temperature"....thats the bottom line. An inefficient radiator with cooler discharge temps is better than an efficient one, with balanced heat transfer across the whole face, which produces hotter discharge temps.
And are you sure about that equation? There isnt one equation for the whole system. There is radiation, convection and conduction all at once. You mention increasing flow....is that flow velocity or mass flow? Flow velocity of the coolant isnt going to increase cooling if you have enough fin area and airflow. You speed it up and it will reduce time and reduce total heat transfer. You figure that if you move the coolant through the radiator too slow, the fins will heat up and lose most of their cooling potential, right? Not with enough fin area and airflow they wont.
This reminds me of all the proponents out there of water injection. They all tell everyone how water can draw far more heat out than alky or methanol. But water takes more time, which we dont have. If somehow, you could give the water more time, it WOULD draw out more heat, until the atomized droplets condensed and the surface area of the sum of droplets decreases.
A multi-core radiator will increase fluid flow velocity, which prevents scale and deposit buildup on the inner walls of the tubes, which destroys heat transfer. Its also distributes the heat transfer more evenly across the radiator. Once the inside of those tubes start to build up scale and other deposits, its all over with. The single row F-Body is a GREAT cooler, but if you dont have a spotless clean coolant system with distilled water only, it wont last as long as the multi core unit.
Tell me this: I had a clean core, multi core, original GN radiator. The F-Body single core cools so much better its unreal. I used to overheat everywhere, in any condition that brought about higher temps...summer, traffic, climbing up mountain roads....
The F-body with its inferior single core, lets the motor run no higher than 168 in california summer traffic, just sitting there, not moving for 15 minutes at a time, with a single stock factory fan running on low speed. In the cooler months, I can drive 35 miles to work, or home from work, without the fan even coming on!
 
As for the "closed system" remark.
By that idea, an intercooler shouldnt work. For the longest time, Vortech would not offer intercoolers with their systems. Some guys who knew better, left vortech to start accessible technologies, aka procharger. They made IC's for all their systems. Vortech continued to be stubborn for many years, and always said that its a closed system, and the drop in temps will not increase air mass into the motor. After fighting it forever, they came out with the aftercooler, which does the same thing, only its a little water cooled IC. It was always knows you could add timing with an IC and make alot of power, but it was eventually found it does increase air mass as well. The cooler air at the discharge side creates a stronger draw through the IC and pulls in more air.
Thats off subject, but the closed system thing isnt. Why dont we start splitting up our IC's into 3 or 4 core units? How do they draw over 100 degrees out of the air in less than a second?
 
Hi,

very good information about the cooling systems. But how you feel abou the following radiators for the gn 87:


SPI CU750 radiator for Firebird,


or Griffin 1-25222X?
 
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