Stinkin' KR !!

[6SENSE]

This is something new Ive been dealing with ever since changing the cam.
I am getting lots of KR for no apparent reason. KR is often high teens, I see alot of 19 degrees flashing across the scanmaster. Lots of annoying beeping from audible detector. KR usually comes in during part throttle, sometimes even during deacceleration (i.e. when I let off the pedal on the highway on off ramp). I thought at first it was just from car jumping around when scratching into 2nd gear and hitting bumps in the road, but its happening during "smooth" driving aswell.
This morning I was on the highway and the car just started throwing a KR fit! I accelerated part throttle to get up to speed from the entrance ramp and the audible detector starts going crazy. I let off it and it beeps, I barely put my foot on the pedal and it beeps!? I didnt think it was going to stop.
Not sure what to make of it yet. Boost is only 14~psi, FP is 43psi, chip is JL. I watched FP gauge, no drop in pressure. No noticeable drops in voltage when it happens. I checked to make sure DP wasnt loose and rattling, checked out okay. Tied up the tranny fill/dipstick tube as it was a little loose, but that didnt make a difference. Might try swapping out the ECM.
Any ideas? Thanks guys.

 

[Nocooler]

Have you replaced the Knock sensor yet? Sounds like its fubar'd.

I assume you hear no audible knock - like bearings, lifters, torque convertor and such?

 

[b4black]

Just to confirm that it's false knock, try some race gas/xylene and see if it go away or not.

Even if the DP isn't loose, it can still bang around if the engine isn't staying put. Open your hood, put it in drive, stand on the brake and rev the engine. See if it looks like it's trying to climb out of the car. (I didn't see a torque strap or ploy mount in your sig.)

A cheap mechanics stethoscope can help you find a strange rattleing. You may also want to search the General Forum archives for opinions on the pinion snubber.

 

[6SENSE]

Replaced sensor in January when I changed turbos.
Did hear some noise from the motor. Sounded a little like an exhaust leak (normal for a TR ), however I admit I wasnt completely sold on that idea. Kind of sounded like the noise that injectors make but amplified. Wasnt coming from lowerend of motor and didnt sound like rockers. Guess it could be lifters?
Anyway, engine had just about 500 miles on it since the cam swap so I went ahead and changed the oil this morning (had changed oil right after initial 25minute cam break-in also). So far it hasnt been as sensitive with the KR when driving it today. I'll probably drive it around a little more tonight before Im convinced that the problem is gone.
Could some crap have been floating around in the oil that was affecting the lifters, maybe from the new cam? Would that be normal, thus the reason for changing the oil more frequently after changing the cam or a rebuild?
I know some people might baby the car for awhile after changing the cam like it was a complete rebuild, but after the initial break-in I admit I DROVE the car. I havent been dogging the car, but I havent been too reluctant to get on it from time to time. I guess you can say Ive just been driving it like your supposed to drive a TR .

 

[6SENSE]

Just saw your reply b4black.
Ive got a poly mount on the driver's side (forgot to put in sig).
I was following the discussion on the pinion snubber a week ago. Was very interesting. Ive got to say since then, everytime my car bounces around with alot of wheel hop, I wonder if it is bouncing off the "fancy" snubber instead of just pressing down on it.
As far as throwing some race gas in, Ive actually thought of just turning down the boost low enough that it shouldnt be at all possible to get knock. I dont really have the boost up very high right now though (14~ on the gauge, and Tlink usually shows 1 or 2 psi lower). Besides, dont know where to get any race gas. Tracks closed.

 

[Nocooler]

Cross your fingers - cam maybe going flat.

 

[6SENSE]

Okay, Im not going to overeact yet! But, share with me your reasoning that derived that possibility. Is it because I said I didnt baby the car for the first 500 miles? I thought that was just basicaly a personal preference thing (I think Reds said that he didnt baby the cam either after initial break-in).
If that is indeed what is happening I want to know soon. I want this car sound before track opens back up. What can I look for. Im going to check my vac #s to see if they have gone down since the cam first went in. I will also be monitoring the idle quality, which was a factor with my previous wiped cam

 

[6SENSE]

Okay, vac #s are 12-13" @ 650-700rpm in drive and 15"~ @ 775~rpm in P/N. No loping at idle.
These #s seem pretty good to me, especially with a cam a couple steps up from stock, and at a fairly low rpm. Low vac and loping idle were obvious indicators when I had a bad cam in the past, on both my TR and Suburban. Bad cam in the TR had only 8"~ of vac in drive and 12" in P/N @ the same rpms as above. Also had a "built up V8" lope to it.
Im still looking for other possibilities. Took the car out for awhile last night. Ran fine for awhile, like normal. Then on the highway, all of a sudden the KR starts kicking in again. I was just cruising and was getting up to 29 degrees of KR when just barely touching the pedal! Car was throwing this fit for a few minutes. Ive tried swapping ECMs, not to say that something couldnt be wrong with both (?).
I know I saw 4 malf codes flash on Tlink but Im having trouble finding them on playback. I remember code 12 (?), a wastegate code, and maybe a O2 sensor code (not sure).

P.S. I know Im not leaning out. During a few runs with Tlink, O2s are 810~ to 850~.

 

[TType84]

can you swap turbos
a known good turbo

mine had the mysterious knock... it was OIL!!

oil makes your 93 octane probably somewhere around 70 octane

 

[6SENSE]

Thanks, I will look into that Nick. I hope not though, I just got the ta33 from John Craig near the beginning of the year.
I have noticed a puff or two of grey smoke though from time to time. For example when I get on it on the highway I see it in my rearview..... hmmm
Only thing is, the problem doesnt occur all the time and not always under boost.

 

[b4black]

A Hot Air's turbo will smoke at different times than an IC's turbo. A Hot Air's draws thru the throttle body, while an IC's blows thru the throttle body.

The draw thru will see high vacuum when decelerating/idleing. This high vacuum sucks the oil past the seal. This is why Hot Air's turbo need a different seal (positive displacement) than an IC's turbo. A Hot Air will smoke right after decelerating whether it reaches boost or not.

 

[Nocooler]

6sense - sounds like the cam/valvetrain should be fine. Check the codes.....if one of them is the ESC module, thats most likely your probelm.

b4black - all the buick turbos use carbon seals, the 86-87 turbo was design for draw-thru also. Thats why they have the bellmouths on them. Ford T3's and some new design turbos use dynamic seals. I've never had a TE series apart so I don't know which they use.

 

[6SENSE]

Thanks for the replys guys.
This is the one time I wish the check engine light was on with a hard code. Maybe the codes I saw on Tlink were intermittent, except that I thought intermittent codes would light up the check engine light for a second and go away. I havent seen the light go on at all. I also thought that intermittent codes would be saved in the ECM. Maybe Tlink was just having a fit, like Ive seen it do from time to time .
Where is the ESC module located, do we have a seperate one on our cars or is it integrated into the ECM? If its seperate, I know Ive never changed it.
If thats not the problem, I'll investigate the turbo some more. I dont think it would so much be related to oil leaking but maybe thats where the slight tap/knock sound Ive heard is coming from. I guess I could check for any excessive play in the shaft. The sound is not very loud but I know it wasnt there before + maybe it gets just loud enough at times to set of the knock sensor. Our turbos ARE sitting right over the sensor.
Performance is still there, probably be a little better without 20~ degrees of KR every other time I hit the pedal thuough .

 

[Nocooler]

The ESC is on the passenger side on the fender - find a spare and test it (if I remember they aren't cheap). Beg, borrow - 86/87 should be interchangeable.

http://www.gnttype.org/maint/8485sens.html

Check the turbo also.....but I've never seen a bad compressor seal make the knock sensor go off on deceleration.

I'm just shooting ideas here. You either have mechanical failure or engine management going nuts.

Good luck and let us know what you find.

 

[6SENSE]

Thanks much.
Good thing Ive been accumulating alot of spare TR parts, I should have an extra ESC module (hopefully a good one). Sounds like the easiest thing to try for now.
Were expecting snow tonight, but if not I'll find out and post soon.

 

[6SENSE]

Swapped ESC modules (thanks Nocooler) today with a spare I had. Drove the car a couple times since for awhile. So far so good, no crazy knock
Hmmm.....no more bad cam, no more false knock, now maybe I can actually tune! Get some tires that will keep on the ground and I may even be able to get some good #s.

Thanks for the help guys!

 

[Nocooler]

Good deal man - have fun