Boostisgood
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Need some help with throttle body. When does a stock throttle body need to be changed? I think my stock one could be hurting my performance. What size would be best for my car? 65mm or 70mm?
Throttle body upgrade?
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Boostisgood
New Member
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Have not ran it yet..........somewhere around 11.60's @ 116 right now. Ive got the boost down and set up rich! With it cranked up, i hope to see high 10's @ 120+. Im at 4,000 ft alt. and 6,000 ft. air.....it sucks ass. How fast do i need to go before the tb will help or not be restrictive? How much for your hemco?
the stock TB is good to the 9's....not a restriction....Jay Jackson's 62 mm upgrade using your stock TB would be more than adequate for any stock block car...trust me, you don't need a 65 Hemco (you'll need to buy a new TB if you want 65mm....figure $150 for the Hemco and $250 for the TB...not good bang for the buck!)
There are guys doing some nice work on porting the stock one. But the stock 57 mm is not the only problem, the plenum is also as you get faster.
I have the 70 mm K.B, all I can say is this. My boost went from 15 psi to 19 psi with no other changes after bolt on. It felt great, and that means that theres definitely a bottle neck with those two stock parts on a modded car. The gained cfm was worth the $300 I spent on it used. I got 4 psi out of it, so I would do something to it, either port it out or get the 70 mm. Your going see something good from it.
The powerplate would be worth while if you are going to be in that area working.
I have the 70 mm K.B, all I can say is this. My boost went from 15 psi to 19 psi with no other changes after bolt on. It felt great, and that means that theres definitely a bottle neck with those two stock parts on a modded car. The gained cfm was worth the $300 I spent on it used. I got 4 psi out of it, so I would do something to it, either port it out or get the 70 mm. Your going see something good from it.
The powerplate would be worth while if you are going to be in that area working.
Was that just the throttle body or both the throttle body and plenum?
I know this, the car went nuts after the install of BOTH and was ready to hug K.B. as it was the best dollar per hp upgrade I had done aside from the test pipe and manual boost controller.
I do not think you will see much at all on just throttle body swaps, and your run showed it. The stock plenum in my opinion is the biggest problem.
I do not have any times, but the boost gauge and knock gauge knew something was up, as in psi and counts. And the sound of rubber was more than enough joy for me on those two upgrades.
I would say, "It takes two to make the thing swerve right"
I know this, the car went nuts after the install of BOTH and was ready to hug K.B. as it was the best dollar per hp upgrade I had done aside from the test pipe and manual boost controller.
I do not think you will see much at all on just throttle body swaps, and your run showed it. The stock plenum in my opinion is the biggest problem.
I do not have any times, but the boost gauge and knock gauge knew something was up, as in psi and counts. And the sound of rubber was more than enough joy for me on those two upgrades.
I would say, "It takes two to make the thing swerve right"
Well low 11's is pretty fast, and mods are needed to get there so why my car with mods doing low 11's saw 4 psi and yours did not I have no clue.
But its hard to believe that a bone stock tb and plenum to the K.B. 70 mm and plenum = nothing?
The thing I was impressed on was the fact that the car actually gained the 4 psi like the catalog said.
In my opinion, it is worth doing. Unlike some other things I have tried.
But hey, thats cars for ya.
But its hard to believe that a bone stock tb and plenum to the K.B. 70 mm and plenum = nothing?
The thing I was impressed on was the fact that the car actually gained the 4 psi like the catalog said.
In my opinion, it is worth doing. Unlike some other things I have tried.
But hey, thats cars for ya.
H
Hofman
Guest
Where do you get a different plenum besides just the dress up parts catalog - and what size do you get. Any other suggested places to buy the TB - and what size would you suggest to get from 12.22 to 11.99?
What is your setup? I would doubt that just by adding a larger tb/plenum it would get you there. Lots of guys on the board, including myself, use Jay Jackson's ported out stocker (62mm) tb and most people think it makes somewhat of a difference. In addition, a powerplate for a stock plenum may help as well although I personally cannot vouch for the power plate since I haven't used one yet.
Rod Thomas
Brutal 6 Member
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when my car ran 11flat @123.. with the stock throttle body. we put a 70 on it, with the KB plenum.. guess what... the car ran the same e.t. and same mph. No difference.... Part throttle drivability was better... but thats it...
I now have a accufab 70, and precision upper, but only because I went to a V1 intercooler that has a 3" Up Pipe... and I did not want to neck down anything...
I now have a accufab 70, and precision upper, but only because I went to a V1 intercooler that has a 3" Up Pipe... and I did not want to neck down anything...
Rod Thomas
Brutal 6 Member
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Also.. seems to me if my car picked up 4 psi of boost.. after bolting on a part, I would think that would be a restriction
If anything, I would think you would want to loose a couple psi, by bolting on a part and be able to crank it back up with your wastegate
Bolt on a really good flowing set of heads, and whala.. the car will make more power at a lower boost level.
If I can remember correctly, I was told that boost is the backed up air the motor doesn't see...
Does this make any sense?
If anything, I would think you would want to loose a couple psi, by bolting on a part and be able to crank it back up with your wastegate
Bolt on a really good flowing set of heads, and whala.. the car will make more power at a lower boost level.
If I can remember correctly, I was told that boost is the backed up air the motor doesn't see...
Does this make any sense?
Carolinaturbot6
Pride. Freedom. America
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The more air you can get into the motor the more hp you can make, potentially.
Of course you need the fuel to go along with it.
With better flowing heads, you don't have to force as much air into the motor to get the same amt. of power.
I hope I made some sense.
Of course you need the fuel to go along with it. With better flowing heads, you don't have to force as much air into the motor to get the same amt. of power.
I hope I made some sense.
This is a two part question to piggy back on some comments made about heads and tb upgrades on slower cars:
1. Is it safe to say that for a car that's largely street driven and modded to run, say, mid to high twelves (which I would suspect represents the lionshare of TR owners out there) would not really benefit from the $ spent to do the TB upgrade?
2. Same 12.5 sec car - does an upgrade to ported irons or, say, champion heads really benefit a car that's running at this level?
I know that the second question changes the direction of the thread a bit, but it came up so I was just curious as I was considering the TB mod previously.
Rich
1. Is it safe to say that for a car that's largely street driven and modded to run, say, mid to high twelves (which I would suspect represents the lionshare of TR owners out there) would not really benefit from the $ spent to do the TB upgrade?
2. Same 12.5 sec car - does an upgrade to ported irons or, say, champion heads really benefit a car that's running at this level?
I know that the second question changes the direction of the thread a bit, but it came up so I was just curious as I was considering the TB mod previously.
Rich
Steve Wood
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1. no benefit
2. maybe 2 tenths and more as the boost is kicked up?
2. maybe 2 tenths and more as the boost is kicked up?
I know I couldn't feel a difference on the 11 sec car going from stock to a 70mm. On a hotair it makes all the difference since the TB is before the turbo and it only costs $20 to have it bored since the inlet and throttle plate are already 70mm.
Boost vs Power
The more air/fuel that gets to the cylinder, the more power you make. If there are restrictions, like small intake valves, low lift cam, then the "boost" won't get to the cylinder. If the throttle body is a restriction, or the plenum, there will be higher pressure in the IC, but it won't get to the intake, or to the cylinders. When you talk about raising the boost, you have to specify WHERE the boost was raised. A higher restriction in the IC, or the throttle body, or the up pipe, would raise the boost at the turbo discharge, but not in the intake, and not in the cylinders. For funsies, you could try measuring pressure (boost) at different points, just to see where the bottle necks in your particular combo are. A stock IC might drop a pound or two, for example, while a "big neck" would drop half as much. The "free" mods, like smoothing/blending the inlet to the IC, and to the turbo, and smoothing/blending the exhaust elbow, all let more air into the engine (and out) without raising the pressure at the turbo discharge, which is the "brute force" method to increase power.
The more air/fuel that gets to the cylinder, the more power you make. If there are restrictions, like small intake valves, low lift cam, then the "boost" won't get to the cylinder. If the throttle body is a restriction, or the plenum, there will be higher pressure in the IC, but it won't get to the intake, or to the cylinders. When you talk about raising the boost, you have to specify WHERE the boost was raised. A higher restriction in the IC, or the throttle body, or the up pipe, would raise the boost at the turbo discharge, but not in the intake, and not in the cylinders. For funsies, you could try measuring pressure (boost) at different points, just to see where the bottle necks in your particular combo are. A stock IC might drop a pound or two, for example, while a "big neck" would drop half as much. The "free" mods, like smoothing/blending the inlet to the IC, and to the turbo, and smoothing/blending the exhaust elbow, all let more air into the engine (and out) without raising the pressure at the turbo discharge, which is the "brute force" method to increase power.
>Also.. seems to me if my car picked up 4 psi of boost.. after bolting on a part, I would think that would be a restriction
If anything, I would think you would want to loose a couple psi, by bolting on a part and be able to crank it back up with your wastegate<
You want the turbo to creep after a part install. It means you freed up backpressure somewhere and now have to open the gate more to vent. That is not a resistriction, a restriction is what was in either you inlet system or exhaust system before the mod.
I bolted on the V2, saw 3 3/4 psi creep. Thats because the stock ic has 4 1/4 pounds of backpressure in it. Would anyone say this is a pointless mod? No, because now there is less backpressure in the inlet system and the turbo does not have to crank out as much boost for the manifold to see a given amount, aside from heat at that same psi.
Put on a test pipe, exhaust system = creep. Your freeing up backpressure in the exhaust system with those parts.
On the rjc site, they have a cfm % of the throttle bodies out there. The k.b. had the highest % at 125 without the plate on. http://www.rjcracing.com/RJC_Buick_Products/RJC_AD_Power_Plate/ADPP_Questions/adpp_questions.html. Looks good to me.
I'll take all the "in my head mods" all day long if they are going to be $300 and give me 4 psi of creep. My $900 V2 barely missed the mark on that one, so would you say thats an in your head mod?
Kenne Bell is one of the few vendors that actually tests their products on buicks. And their result was the same, 4 psi of creep.
Before you go slamming something, make sure it was not tested and had positive results to put up against your comments about it.
1) The reason guys do not see a benifit from this is because they are using the ancient old factory boost solenoid. If you were to get rid of it and get a manual controller, you could lower the boost signal on the controller instead of turning out the rod. Leave the ROD ALONE and the car will roast like never before. It would be like you turned in the rod 4 turns, yet the rod will be in the same place and only the signal end has been altered to get back at your desired boost level. You will see a huge difference.
2) Ya, but why spend $1200 when you can do other things for cheaper and get a better hp per dollar.
Want to test my theory? I will GIVE SOMEONE A FREE MANUAL CONTROLLER AND HAVE THEM SET IT UP THE WAY I TELL THEM TO. Then have them come back on here and show why in the future, you will never turn OUT the rod ever again on a part mod and actually see the true benifit from the part. $50 for free to prove just what you guys have been missing all these years.
If so, lets get someone every repects their word, so no newbies please. Steve Wood, you know alot about these cars, and everyone knows you, lets give it a test run, or do you have one already? If so, I can on the board tell you the little trick.
If anything, I would think you would want to loose a couple psi, by bolting on a part and be able to crank it back up with your wastegate<
You want the turbo to creep after a part install. It means you freed up backpressure somewhere and now have to open the gate more to vent. That is not a resistriction, a restriction is what was in either you inlet system or exhaust system before the mod.
I bolted on the V2, saw 3 3/4 psi creep. Thats because the stock ic has 4 1/4 pounds of backpressure in it. Would anyone say this is a pointless mod? No, because now there is less backpressure in the inlet system and the turbo does not have to crank out as much boost for the manifold to see a given amount, aside from heat at that same psi.
Put on a test pipe, exhaust system = creep. Your freeing up backpressure in the exhaust system with those parts.
On the rjc site, they have a cfm % of the throttle bodies out there. The k.b. had the highest % at 125 without the plate on. http://www.rjcracing.com/RJC_Buick_Products/RJC_AD_Power_Plate/ADPP_Questions/adpp_questions.html. Looks good to me.
I'll take all the "in my head mods" all day long if they are going to be $300 and give me 4 psi of creep. My $900 V2 barely missed the mark on that one, so would you say thats an in your head mod?
Kenne Bell is one of the few vendors that actually tests their products on buicks. And their result was the same, 4 psi of creep.
Before you go slamming something, make sure it was not tested and had positive results to put up against your comments about it.
1) The reason guys do not see a benifit from this is because they are using the ancient old factory boost solenoid. If you were to get rid of it and get a manual controller, you could lower the boost signal on the controller instead of turning out the rod. Leave the ROD ALONE and the car will roast like never before. It would be like you turned in the rod 4 turns, yet the rod will be in the same place and only the signal end has been altered to get back at your desired boost level. You will see a huge difference.
2) Ya, but why spend $1200 when you can do other things for cheaper and get a better hp per dollar.
Want to test my theory? I will GIVE SOMEONE A FREE MANUAL CONTROLLER AND HAVE THEM SET IT UP THE WAY I TELL THEM TO. Then have them come back on here and show why in the future, you will never turn OUT the rod ever again on a part mod and actually see the true benifit from the part. $50 for free to prove just what you guys have been missing all these years.
If so, lets get someone every repects their word, so no newbies please. Steve Wood, you know alot about these cars, and everyone knows you, lets give it a test run, or do you have one already? If so, I can on the board tell you the little trick.
