Time to play name that metal in trans pan..

[65skyturbo]

Ok, let me give the details. Trans is a 2004r AC Delco CRTA unit that I picked up dirt cheap when GM discontinued them a few years ago. It has a Transgo HD shift kit, Sonnax Super Servo with cushion spring installed, Hughes torque converter, CK pump assembly and Monte SS governor from CK as well. I just installed it into the car (1965 Skylark) and put about 100-150 miles on it. I noticed that it did not have lock up in fourth gear. After verifying that the lockup circuit is getting 12V at the proper time, I dropped the pan to check the solenoid and the valve above it. Solenoid tested OK and then I found that the valve was stuck. Since I believe that to be fixed (havent driven yet to verify) I will move on to the metal I found in the pan. Basically it looks to be about the same thickness as an oil ring (not compression ring) in an engine. It has a rolled edge or lip but I can not tell how high up the lip went. Looks like it might have been somewhere around 3-4 inches in diameter and about 1/8" wide. The largest piece I found was only about 3/8" long. Only found about 3 pieces. The trans shifted very firm but not as violent as some of the other 2004R trans I've had in the past. I ran a pressure test on it previously just to make sure the TV system was working correctly and the pressures were where they should be for a modified trans. So are there any common failures of parts that meet that discription? I've never taken a trans completely apart (yet) but my guess is it might be part of a torrington roller bearing. Sorry, I wish I had pictures but my employee washed the metal pieces down the drain when he cleaned the pan for me.

 

[65skyturbo]

Well, I took the car for a test drive today and still no OD lockup. I thought for sure the stuck tcc apply valve was the cause. Any ideas? I guess I will pull the valve body and make sure everything there is free. It also gives me an excuse to put in a more aggressively modified VB spacer plate. If all valves are not binding, the solenoid and wiring is good then it would have to be the pump or the convertor, right? Any input would be appreciated. Thanks.

 

[Lee Thompson]

solenoid

I would first remove the electrical solenoid from trans. Wire it to a battery charger (the 2 wires for the lock up solenoid).Be sure to get the + and - right or it will kill it. While blowing through the valve apply power and see if it shuts off. If it does shut off and you are sure it is getting power WHEN it is supposed to then yes, either pump or convertor. Do you know the convertor locked prior to you using it? With solenoid out, can you stroke the lock up valve? You should be able to push it up into the pump 1/2 in. approximately and it should return. Best of luck.

 

[65skyturbo]

While testing the solenoid I wondered if it was failing under pressure so I did put some air pressure to it and it worked as it is supposed to. The first time I touched the lock up valve in the pump it appeared to be stuck. However, every time I pressed it after that it went up probably at least 3/8 in. and sprung back. Both the pump and the convertor were installed at the same time and were fresh out of their boxes. The pump is from CK and the convertor is Hughes. I have talked with Hughes several times since they are located only a few miles from where I work. They don't think it is the convertor (of course they wouldn't) but are willing to look at it under warranty. If I have to pull the tranny to get the TC, I want to know for sure that it is not the pump. I don't want to put in a new TC just to have the same problem. Is there any way to rule out the pump?

 

[Lee Thompson]

Maybe, just maybe

The spool is not stroking enough. Later today I will get a pump out and measure just how far it actually moves. I do know it has to stroke fully.

 

[65skyturbo]

Ok, that would be perfect. If it is not going far enough into the bore, what would be stopping it? Isn't there an inner and outer spring above it. I wonder if they are tangled together.

 

[Lee Thompson]

Just measured one

Best I could measure---.375--3/8 in. so I guess that is not the problem. Yes there is 2 springs in the bore. How are you trying to lock up?

 

[65skyturbo]

Trans is wired with 12V to solenoid anytime the ignition is on. Ground is supplied to the solenoid when trans shifts into fourth through pressure switch. Step on brake pedal and 12V+ is taken away from solenoid. It is in an older car with no ECM. I have verified all of this to be functioning corecttly using LEDs wired into the circuit. I believe the problem to be mechanical and not electrical. I'm just not sure if it is in the pump, TC or I believe there is a valve in the valve body that does something related to TCC lockup (not sure on that one, but ATSG manual mentions something about it). BTW, thanks for your help with this.

 

[SSedan64]

This does sound like a mechanical or fluid flow problem. With the LEDs connected that will let you know the circuits being completed.
Could the trans have a Non lockup valve kit installed above the solenoid from a previous user before being rebuilt?

One of the better lockup Info pages.>>
Wiring a Lockup-Converter Pressure Switch

 

[65skyturbo]

If I'm not mistaken, the non lockup kit would be in the pump assembly. I purchased the pump from CK Performance and it is supposed to allow lockup. Is there something else in the trans case or valve body that will keep it from locking up? Hughes said that the TC that I ordered does have lock up so unless it is defective that shouldn't be the problem. I doubt it is related, but the pump does whine at rpms of less than 1000. Haven't given that too much thought since I know that a lot of 2004Rs make whining noise. Who knows maybe I have a bum pump...

 

[SSedan64]

If I'm not mistaken, the non lockup kit would be in the pump assembly. I purchased the pump from CK Performance and it is supposed to allow lockup. Is there something else in the trans case or valve body that will keep it from locking up? Hughes said that the TC that I ordered does have lock up so unless it is defective that shouldn't be the problem. I doubt it is related, but the pump does whine at rpms of less than 1000. Haven't given that too much thought since I know that a lot of 2004Rs make whining noise. Who knows maybe I have a bum pump...

There's a Converter Clutch shift valve in the VBody, it's controlled by a spring keeping it closed & blocking 2nd oil coming from the 1-2 shift valve. While Gov oil pressure opens the ConverterClutch valvetrain & 2nd oil enters the CC signal passage and on up to solenoid. If it's energized lockup should occur. This is condensed from what the book says. My printer/scanners crapped.:biggrin:
It's easy to spot a lockup converter by the front cover. I doubt CK sent the wrong pump.

 

[65skyturbo]

I will double check my convertor, lock ups are flat on the flexplate side if I remember correctly. Once Christmas is over, I will drop the pan and check the valve body. Basically, I just want to do all the diagnostic tests I can do while it is still installed in the car. Hopefully the problem will present itself before I have to drop the tranny. If not, then at least I've ruled out all of the simpler items.

 

[chris718]

Install The Valve First In The Bore And Then The Springs, Retainer ,and Snap Ring.if The Converter Is Good It Will Lock As Soon As You Put It In Gear.

 

[65skyturbo]

Ok, I'll give that a try. So if I understand correctly, this will also bypass the solenoid and be strictly a hydraulic circuit for testing. Most likely when I put it into gear the engine will stall or at least bog letting me know that the convertor is locking. Thanks.

 

[chris718]

Correct.should Stall Out

 

[65skyturbo]

Ok, with Xmas it will be few days before I get to this but at least I have a plan of attack. Thanks everyone and Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, etc.

 

[Lee Thompson]

I would try

Running the ground through a toggle switch. Seems like I remember reading somewhere that using the trans pressure switch has some draw backs. Would be simple to do before dropping pan. Best of luck.

 

[65skyturbo]

I wondered if the pressure switch was working properly but I verified that with an LED also. But just to cover all basis, I also wired a toggle switch so that I could have full control of the lockup for testing. Once 4th engaged on the freeway, I flipped the switch and got nothing. Also had an LED to tell me that the switch was sending power. I had so many LEDs it looked like a christmas tree. Tis the season, right....

 

[65skyturbo]

Took out the convertor clutch valve and installed it backwards. Convertor engaged within seconds of putting it into drive. So, evidentally the convertor is functioning fine. What is the next logical thing to test? Any way to test the pump?

 

[Lee Thompson]

I still say

For whatever reason the valve is not stroking. Putting the valve in backwards is the same as stroking it fully (I assume). Call me stubborn but I still say you are not powering up the solenoid or it is defective. Doing what you just did tells me the pump and convertor are OK. Hopefully someone with more knowledge than me will chim in.