To E85 or not ?

[turbo89]

with respect maybe one day you can explain that a little betterthe turbo,motor,and overall combo will et and mph given a certain weight its just in the math.i see guys switch fuels all the time and mostly chase there tail.take a stock buick v6 stock turbo combo for example i believe the record is a pump gas alky combo (murphster),and before that another pump gas alky car (ed brewer)on a heavier car,any e85 combos near a pump gas alky combo as fas as et and mph?we can talk built motors as well,i know of several built motors take a range from mid 9's to mid 10s that have run on multiple fuels from race gas to pump gas alky to e85,and most were limited to the turbo and motor they were running.to be clear,for example those that have a really good motor but are out of turbo i havent seen a gain on switching fuels.im not talking about those that have more motor and dont use their turboi have heard that e98 make more power from a friend that dyno tunes,i havent seen or tested the e98,but that particular vehicle did not run faster than its race gas opponent in a blower size restricted event.

Im not gonna go there ... stock motor .. stock turbo ?? 1 question WHY ??? who gives a shit if its a stock turbo other than the guy wants to say LOOK WHAT I RAN WITH THE STOCK TURBO ..

No disrespect intended .. I ran BOTH and NO WAY in the world would I EVER go back to 93 + ALKY over E85
The fact you bring up E98 tells me a lot ... It Makes ZERO sense to run ALKY + 93 if you have E85 available.
Sorry E85 can cover from 6's to 10's .. how many 8 second ALKY + 93 cars do you see ?

Its just easier for me to drop this one .. I will leave the OP with this .. E85 is a better solution with more PRO's than Cons
anybody that says otherwise .. has NOT TRIED E85 and is not being fair if comparing to ALKY + 93

Only place ALKY + 93 Wins ... if you cant get E85 .. and there are LOTS of places you cant .. so ALKY just makes sense

DONE HERE !

 

[Ttype6]

I used alcohol injection for a while and had nothing but problems. Nothing good ever came from that experiment for me. Having said that,I know what other people have done with alcohol,so there is no denying what it CAN do.

Some people in this community are more than fine with adding a pump and a controller into the mix when it comes to alcohol injection.They're OK with adding a controller that can and does fail and they're OK with adding a pump that needs constant monitoring and maintenance because it is always on its way toward failure. Some of those same people will verbally assault you in this forum when you dare to advise running 2 fuel pumps. Why? because they are afraid that the second pump won't come on when it should resulting in destruction. Because of this fear we have many people with 400hp engines using a single big pump which forces them to install a larger fuel return line and for some unknown reason they also add a bigger fuel feed line that isn't needed in either scenario. That's $500.00 wasted. It's important to realize that the alcohol controller can fail in 2 ways. It can command the pump to deliver too little alcohol and it can command the pump to deliver too much alcohol. The way I see it,alcohol injection creates 3 possible ways to fail. There is no doubt that alcohol injection has damaged more engines in this community than running 2 fuel pumps has. Probably 50 to 1 and I have only been able to confirm 2 people who've experienced the failure of the second fuel pump to turn on.
The first head gasket I blew was because of alcohol and it was at 10 lbs of boost. Yay alcohol. It happened more times after that. One pump rebuild and 2 controllers.

You can blow head gaskets with E85 but pretty much only by advancing the timing. It won't detonate,but the flame front will advance too quickly before tdc creating pressure that the head gasket can't contain. I don't care what your combo is,21 degrees is the max safe amount of advance and with uneven air fuel distribution can be too much. E85 has a faster burn rate than gasoline and helping it to advance faster is a bad idea. Advancing ignition timing,in general,should be looked at as a burden,not an achievement. Advancing timing above what you ran with gasoline is the very wrong thing to do when you use E85.

FYI,My fuel lines,rubber and steel,are the same lines that came on my car in 1986 and they have 180,000 miles and 32 years on them. My Red Armstrong double fuel pump setup (not rated for ethanol) sat in 5 Gallons of E85 in the tank for 3 years in Michigan while I put together my bored and stroked factory 4.1 engine. I never inspected the pumps after the 3 years and my fuel system currently supplies to my engine the equivalent amount of fuel to operate a 900 hp engine running on gasoline. E85 is not corrosive and I've never seen a spec of corrosion in my fuel lines,filter, injectors (just had them checked recently and they passed with flying colors),or fuel rail.

 

[Turbo6inKY]

A good running GN should be able to get 21-23 mpg,so 16 with E85 is in the ballpark.

On a stock short block, stock cam, and a TurboTweak chip I got 18mpg on a trip from Louisville to Jefferson City, Missouri on E85.

 

[Mr.Spool]

I ran BOTH and NO WAY in the world would I EVER go back to 93 + ALKY over E85

relax my friend.in buickland most cars will run 300/700hp, my point is all the fuels will do that and the op already has alky injection.i dont care what people run but the truth of it is important to me.pump gas/meth/alky,e85,race gas both leaded and unleaded will cover the op power request.its preference and cost in buickland.

 

[NY Twin Turbo]

Only place ALKY + 93 Wins ... if you cant get E85 .. and there are LOTS of places you cant .. so ALKY just makes sense

E-85 just happens to be available 1000 feet from my house. I believe my car is 100% E-85 capable. In addition to XFI and the necessary proper hoses, pump, regulator, and injector sizing, I also have a flex-fuel sensor sitting on my tool chest ready to install (possibly this winter).

But there are 2 things that keeps me from using E-85...................

The first thing-
Currently, I'm OK with it's 93/alky street performance as it stands. I know this may not apply to many TR owners as they are always looking for more. But because my tune is good as it is and I'm too busy to create an E-85 tune right now. And also the alky has proven to be reliable, and I'm in the habit of having the pump re-freshened with a spare handy, I'm just not motivated to try something different just yet.

The second thing-
I have a 12 gallon fuel cell. This wouldn't be a problem at the racetrack . But my car rarely goes to the track and is street driven often. And it's driven for hours at at a time. I know having a small fuel tank is not a common obstacle against E-85 usage for most TR owners. But I figured I would mention it as an obstacle nonetheless. But one way or another, you will be filling your tank more often. Just not as often as I will.

Performance wise, I see no real downsides. But I figured I'd share my logic.

 

[Mr.Spool]

The first head gasket I blew was because of alcohol and it was at 10 lbs of boost. Yay alcohol.

?were you running a single or twin nozzle?what was the pump pressure at when this happened?kinda hard to swallow this one as these motors really dont need much if any alky for 10psi.some food for thought i am running the same controller for over a decade now with 0 issues,i have never touched it,lines are the same,pumps i stay on top of but i have never seen one fail to deliver under 100psi even when leaking.i have had lots of different fuel pumps in my car,and guess what they all have failed or stopped working at some point sometimes leaving one stranded on the side on the road.so the alky kit in my situation has proven more dependable than in tank pumps.the e10 93 fuels will kill the pumps not if but when and the e85 will kill them faster.the guys that run the e85 stuff up here stay on top of their fuel system (injector cleaning),filter changes,pump rebuilds,and dont try to run them like a gas car.methanol,ethanol,all pull moisture in and thats a real problem up here.we see it sit on top of the gas if the cars sit too long, also shows in the oil really quickly so that gets changed out sooner as well.but hey all in all e85/93 alky is much cheaper than race gas.also there are many that run just race gas because it comes straight from the barrel,its also why i prefer m1 methanol.guys have alot of money in the cars up here and want to know exactly whats going in.

 

[Mr.Spool]

It won't detonate,b

every fuel detonates.show me one that doesnt and im all in.

 

[turbo89]

every fuel detonates.show me one that doesnt and im all in.

Water .. does that mean your going back to a steam engine now ??

 

[Mr.Spool]

Water .. does that mean your going back to a steam engine now ??

lol no. none of us have internals for that kind of pressure

 

[Ttype6]

lol no. none of us have internals for that kind of pressure

None of them detonate if you don't ask them to do what they can't do.. I was only advising about what not to do with E85.

 

[Ttype6]

kinda hard to swallow this one

I believe every thing you say about your experience with your car. Why don't you believe my story? I gave 2 examples of how a controller can fail. Can you see how one of them could cause problems at only 10 lbs of boost?

i am running the same controller for over a decade now with 0 issues,

Then you've had the exact opposite experience from what I had. That's one of the reasons you still use it and I don't. There's no controller to fail when using E85.

pumps i stay on top of

Of course,you have to. It's one of the drawbacks that I mentioned. I see that you freely admit to the need for extra maintenance. This will be helpful information to the OP as he determines which way to proceed.

i have had lots of different fuel pumps in my car,and guess what they all have failed or stopped working at some point sometimes leaving one stranded

Once again,I've had the exact opposite experience from yours. I've had 3 and never a failure.I'm still running the last 2 pumps I bought 15 years ago. So what? I never said fuel pumps don't fail. I said that I only know of 2 people in this community who have sustained engine damage because of the second pump of their double pump set-ups failing to come on when commanded to. Many more than 2 have experienced engine damage because of alcohol injection systems failing to do what they were supposed to do. I was in no way commenting on your personal experience. I was talking about the whole community and also commenting on the hypocrisy of some in this community who scoff at the idea that the alcohol pump could add extra risk on top of the risks that we all take at wide open throttle,but are violently opposed to relying on a second fuel pump. Since you mentioned it,were any of the pumps you mentioned the second pump of a double pump set-up that failed to come on when commanded to,leading to engine damage?

guys have a lot of money in the cars up here and want to know exactly whats going in.

I live in Flint Michigan. We have no money in our cars because we just steal em. We don't care what we put in them. Nail polish remover,paint thinner,mouth wash,or Captain Morgan. WE Don't Care.

 

[Mr.Spool]

I see that you freely admit to the need for extra maintenance.

sure,i have a meth dependent car,its cheap insurance.if you dont need to lean on the kit you could go much longer.i also pull my intake pumps as well.i have left things in there to the point of pressure drop off and failure but i now choose to get ahead of things more.

 

[Mr.Spool]

I said that I only know of 2 people in this community who have sustained engine damage because of the second pump of their double pump set-ups failing to come on when commanded to.

there are plenty more,but like alot of things in this community its not talked about.in my opinion i feel a double pumper setup is solid,but there are alot of different ways to get fuel in the car.

 

[Mr.Spool]

Since you mentioned it,were any of the pumps you mentioned the second pump of a double pump set-up that failed to come on when commanded to,leading to engine damage?

yes, but i also have seen singles fail which gets you stuck.one of the better moments i have seen running 2 seperate fuel systems is when a single just falls off and you lose 10/15psi on a hard running car,i have had situations where the alky bought enough time to save the motor if your paying attention.doubles when they fail can be a real problem only if your really leaning on the car and not watching fp.i dont really see hobbs switches fail but there are some that say they have.either way i personally look at fp all the time.guys run different setups to get things done a single with a controler vs 2 doubles to me are just 2 different ways to achieve the same thing.

 

[Mr.Spool]

Then you've had the exact opposite experience from what I had. That's one of the reasons you still use it and I don't.

i agree .if i had issues like you did i wouldnt touch it either.there are multiple ways to get get octane and fuel into the motor

 

[Mr.Spool]

Why don't you believe my story?

i didnt say i didnt,but do me a favor if you ever see my car please keep a solid 10 feet away from my alky kit

 

[Mr.Spool]

I'm still running the last 2 pumps I bought 15 years ago.

that is going to bite you my friend.i left pumps in in the past a long time when there was no ethanol in the gas,pure 93 and 94 and they went alot longer.the shelf live on the gas is much shorter now.reds pumps are tough but anything with ethanol gas will freeze them up too.

 

[Mr.Spool]

This will be helpful information to the OP as he determines which way to proceed.

i hope this thread helps everybody.there is no free lunch with any fuel system and all have drawbacks.

 

[Ttype6]

that is going to bite you my friend.i left pumps in in the past a long time when there was no ethanol in the gas,pure 93 and 94 and they went alot longer.the shelf live on the gas is much shorter now.reds pumps are tough but anything with ethanol gas will freeze them up too.

Again,not a speck,not a hint of dirt or corrosion anywhere in my fuel system including the injectors. Oh,I forgot to mention that I am some how able to do another impossible thing with ethanol. I use a paper filter. Again,I just had my injectors flowed. They're perfect. That is a good testament to the paper filter that you must never use with ethanol.

 

[Ttype6]

i have left things in there to the point of pressure drop off and failure but i now choose to get ahead of things more.

Thanks to Bob and Eric ,so many of use are able to keep an eye on things that we never did or could before. Recording data is a wonderful thing. Any of us who have been doing this for a while are so much smarter about the things we do to these cars because of the lessons we've learned from doing so many stupid things.