Turbo 5.3 or 6.0 - ?'s

[Black Power]

There's a local guy running twin eBay turbos on an lsX block car and it runs 8s at pretty huge mph and they've held together for quite a while. This may be abnormal, though...

 

[bhasmer12]

If it blows up and sends compressor wheel pieces into your engine you'll be out a lot more than you think. Don't buy a cheap turbo...

I'm 21, go to school full-time, and work part-time. Thus, I have a given budget to complete this. I don't want this build to take 10 years so I'm going to have to cheap out on a few things. I simply can't afford some $1,500 turbo. I've actually heard a lot of good things about the On3 Performance turbos. A local guy is running one on a 6.0 swapped Fox making near 800 at the tire. No issues thus far.

 

[bhasmer12]

B4 you go that route, look over on LS1tech.... LOTS of reasons to NOT buy that crap....

I've done some research over there and have read a few, not a bunch, of threads with people very pleased with their products. I haven't set my mind on buying that turbo. It will likely be another year or more before I get one as it will be one of the last things I buy. If you can provide another "affordable", quality turbo, I'd love to know what that would be.

 

[bhasmer12]

There's a local guy running twin eBay turbos on an lsX block car and it runs 8s at pretty huge mph and they've held together for quite a while. This may be abnormal, though...

I've seen many threads of others doing the same. Mine will be driven mainly on the street and not spun super hard so that should prolong the life of the turbo some.

 

[Black Power]

Look at www.theturboforums.com for sale stuff. I bought a brand new Garret GT4202 for $550 shipped, it's a T6 and it's freakin' huge. I could easily upgrade to an 88, 91, 94mm and all I would have to do is make the downpipe a little bit longer and put an external wastegate on the hot pipes.

 

[forcefed86]

You could make 600 crank hp with a good fart into any LS series engine. Factoy engines and parts for the 5.3 and 4.8 are a dime a dozen. The 6.0 is sought after and parts for it are more expensive. Sell the 6.0 and buy 2 5.3/4.8 motors. IMHO nothing aftermarket is "budget friendly". So it doesn't matter that the 6.0 stuff is more available or slightly cheaper in summit. Once you start taking things apart it gets expensive fast. You can pick up junk yard 4.8's for $300. Buy a few of them and if you blow it up, drop in another. With a set of studs,LS9 heads gaskets, and a cam/springs a local is pushing over 900whp through a 160k+ 5.3. Running 8.6x.

Heres my LS toy. Dished piston 5.3 with 317 6.0 heads. LS9 cam and gaskets with studs. Going for 700whp or so. S400sx 75mm BW turbo. T4.

 

[bhasmer12]

Look at www.theturboforums.com for sale stuff. I bought a brand new Garret GT4202 for $550 shipped, it's a T6 and it's freakin' huge. I could easily upgrade to an 88, 91, 94mm and all I would have to do is make the downpipe a little bit longer and put an external wastegate on the hot pipes.

theturboforums.com...got it! Thanks. I'll definitely look into that. Now what is the difference between say...a t6 and t4? I know, or at least I think, they're different flanges, but is one necessarily better than the other?

 

[bhasmer12]

You could make 600 crank hp with a good fart into any LS series engine. Factoy engines and parts for the 5.3 and 4.8 are a dime a dozen. The 6.0 is sought after and parts for it are more expensive. Sell the 6.0 and buy 2 5.3/4.8 motors. IMHO nothing aftermarket is "budget friendly". So it doesn't matter that the 6.0 stuff is more available or slightly cheaper in summit. Once you start taking things apart it gets expensive fast. You can pick up junk yard 4.8's for $300. Buy a few of them and if you blow it up, drop in another. With a set of studs,LS9 heads gaskets, and a cam/springs a local is pushing over 900whp through a 160k+ 5.3. Running 8.6x.

Heres my LS toy. Dished piston 5.3 with 317 6.0 heads. LS9 cam and gaskets with studs. Going for 700whp or so. S400sx 75mm BW turbo. T4.

Lol @ making 600 crank hp with a good fart into an Ls motor. I'll have to give it a REALLY good fart, though, because I'm wanting that 600 at the tires.
Not selling the 6.0. If it blows, I have a 5.3 as backup. And by the time I blow both of those motors, I'll probably have my other 6.0 forged. The only aftermarket things I'm really looking to buy would be the cam, turbo and turbo related parts. The Ls3 heads and intake will be GM (not TSP's stuff) and can definitely be found SUPER CHEAP. I've seen the heads/intake sell go for just north of $400. There's really nothing going in/on my motor that will be coming from Summit besides maybe some hoses, lines, or fittings.
It's crazy how these simple builds with high mileage motors can reach power numbers that high. I'll definitely be getting the ARP studs. I know the Ls9 cam is supposed to be an awesome turbo cam and is super cheap, but it's too mild for my tastes. That 122.5 LSA just isn't my flavor. I'm just gonna' have Ed Curtis at FTI grind me something on a 114 hopefully.

 

[Black Power]

The T6 turbos are pretty damn big. The housings are big, the flanges are big, the downpipes are big. All that crap takes up room, weighs a lot, and makes it more challenging. That being said, mine looks like a damn rocket with the hood open, because the turbo housing is so huge (even though the wheel is pretty small comparatively). I would look for a T4, it'll make things easier for you and 600 whp would be no problem for a 76-80mm with a T4.

 

[Black Power]

Also I am using a 224/228 on a 114 LSA cam. Low lift too, only around .540 or so. I think it'll idle ok and have some nice top end charge. We will see.

 

[bhasmer12]

The T6 turbos are pretty damn big. The housings are big, the flanges are big, the downpipes are big. All that crap takes up room, weighs a lot, and makes it more challenging. That being said, mine looks like a damn rocket with the hood open, because the turbo housing is so huge (even though the wheel is pretty small comparatively). I would look for a T4, it'll make things easier for you and 600 whp would be no problem for a 76-80mm with a T4.

Also I am using a 224/228 on a 114 LSA cam. Low lift too, only around .540 or so. I think it'll idle ok and have some nice top end charge. We will see.

T4 is what I was looking for already, and reading what you had to say, is probably what I'll stay with. We'll just have to see what I find when it's "turbo-time". I have truck, GTO, and Z06 manifolds so I plan on using one of those upside down with a new flange welded on. I've heard the the truck manifolds are stronger than the others and personally prefer the design of them over the others so I'll probably use them. If the T6 flange would be too large, I'll have no choice but to go with a T4. Again, we'll just have to see what I find when it comes to be that time or what finds me before then. I've seen some Master Power turbos going for pretty cheap locally. I want 600 for sure, but I'd also like the capability of more if I choose to crank the boost up.
.540"??? No shit? Seems kinda' low. I'm just gonna' go with whatever Ed tells me to run. He seems to prefer his grinds in the .600"s so that's probably what I'll end up with.

 

[Black Power]

Those master power turbos work well. My buddy has one on a 363 (or close) ci SBF in a Mustang and it runs mid nines and has for years. The T6 flange can be done, I am using it, but it isn't necessary for your goals. Plus the crossover pipes are bigger, you will want to use a 2"-2.25" pipe if you can (or a 2.5" like me if you have to) for the crossover pipes from the manifolds to the turbo, that way you can get some good velocity and the turbo will spool quickly. I went with a low lift cam because I don't want to buy really expensive springs, I don't want a lot of stress on said springs (never want to change them out, lol) and the intake valve is going to have some help with the incoming air, so I didn't feel it was necessary to have a ton of lift (or duration for that matter). I think the mild duration and lift on the exhaust will also help with the turbo spooling quickly, although that shouldn't ever be a problem since I have a 6L to spin it.

 

[gs462]

I would use the 6 Litre, the LS3 heads flow a crazy amount of air and the bore on the 5.3 is too small to take advantage of them. some port work on them with a fast lsx intake and your choice of turbo you should make WELL over 600 at the wheels.

 

[forcefed86]

I would use the 6 Litre, the LS3 heads flow a crazy amount of air and the bore on the 5.3 is too small to take advantage of them. some port work on them with a fast lsx intake and your choice of turbo you should make WELL over 600 at the wheels.

You don't need big bores, big cams, big cubes, or crazy flowing heads on a turbo motor. Thats kinda the point!

Also don't have to worry about the smaller bores shrouding the valves when it's all under pressure. Your boost knob dictates how much is flowing through the head (to a point). If your going stock for stock the 6.0 will fail before the 4.8 will power wise. OEM 243 heads will support over 1000whp. So unless your aiming for over 1000whp and plan on spending alot of money, why go with a 6.0 or $1000 intake manifolds?

The bigger is better mentality doesn't always apply.

 

[gs462]

You don't need big bores, big cams, big cubes, or crazy flowing heads on a turbo motor. Thats kinda the point!

Also don't have to worry about the smaller bores shrouding the valves when it's all under pressure. Your boost knob dictates how much is flowing through the head (to a point). If your going stock for stock the 6.0 will fail before the 4.8 will power wise. OEM 243 heads will support over 1000whp. So unless your aiming for over 1000whp and plan on spending alot of money, why go with a 6.0 or $1000 intake manifolds?

The bigger is better mentality doesn't always apply.

Sure you dont need them but why build it twice, you could use the ls3 intake and you probably will never need any more, just crank the boost, But FOR MY money Id build it right the first time, The better the heads and intake flow the less the turbo has to work to move the air AROUND SHROUDED valves and unsmooth intake passages. But I guess that your POINT! is do it cheap and do it numerous times. To each his own I guess.

 

[gs462]

You don't need big bores, big cams, big cubes, or crazy flowing heads on a turbo motor. Thats kinda the point!

Also don't have to worry about the smaller bores shrouding the valves when it's all under pressure. Your boost knob dictates how much is flowing through the head (to a point). If your going stock for stock the 6.0 will fail before the 4.8 will power wise. OEM 243 heads will support over 1000whp. So unless your aiming for over 1000whp and plan on spending alot of money, why go with a 6.0 or $1000 intake manifolds?

The bigger is better mentality doesn't always apply.

So I guess all the TR guys with stage motors big cams and ported heads are doing it wrong, they should just get a bigger turbo?? Is that what you're sayin? Ill be sure to let them know you say they're wrong this week in BG.

 

[forcefed86]

Sure you dont need them but why build it twice, you could use the ls3 intake and you probably will never need any more, just crank the boost, But FOR MY money Id build it right the first time, The better the heads and intake flow the less the turbo has to work to move the air AROUND SHROUDED valves and unsmooth intake passages. But I guess that your POINT! is do it cheap and do it numerous times. To each his own I guess.

The OP is talking about using an OEM motor. We don’t all have bottomless wallets to build things to the hilt. I’d go that way too if money wasn’t a concern.

My point is (if you know what your doing) you can make 600-700hp+ without aftermarket/LS3 parts or the larger cube 6.0 engine. That is a fact. To many guys out there over building engines when the factory equipment is more than adequate. (…and sometimes better). Shrouded valves aren't an issue with boosted LS motor at the 600-700hp range. Many folks (me included) run a 317 head on a small bore motor.

It’s not a matter of doing it the “right way” or the “wrong way”. It’s all about total HP vs $$ invested. If I you can reach your goals with factory equipment why spend more? An intake manifold, heads, and a bigger motor/cam aren’t going to last any longer that the factory 5.3/4.8 equipment. The countless guys out there making 600-700 reliably on a bone stock lsx series engine speaks for itself. It is more cost effective to run a $300 engine hard for a season (or more) and just replace it than it is to build some forged “super motor”.Longevity is an issue with any performance motor. I don’t care if you have a fully built motor or not. Chances are you’re going to hurt it at some point. I’d much rather blow up a $300 short block than a $5000 one anyday.
Turbos are made to “WORK” that is more my point. They operate at a specific range. Size your turbo correctly to your engine on a compressor map the first time and you aren’t causing extra wear and tear on the unit. Semi turbos operate at 25-30psi for 300k+. Turbo longevity is the least of your worries on a turbo build. The whole point of a turbo build is to use the turbo to make power, not the other way around.

So I guess all the TR guys with stage motors big cams and ported heads are doing it wrong, they should just get a bigger turbo?? Is that what you're sayin? Ill be sure to let them know you say they're wrong this week in BG.

You honestly think if the the TR guys running stage motors could make the kind of power they are putting out on factory parts that they wouldn't do it? Over building is moronic, period. If you can reach your goals with factory equipment then there's no reason to run anything else.

 

[Black Power]

you guys both have good points, I will agree that I feel like the $1000 FAST manifold, while nice, isn't necessary since you are forcing air past it at. I'm sure it would make more power at less boost, but I wouldn't even consider buying one unless I was rich as hell and had nothing better to do with my 1 grand.

 

[bhasmer12]

Those master power turbos work well. My buddy has one on a 363 (or close) ci SBF in a Mustang and it runs mid nines and has for years. The T6 flange can be done, I am using it, but it isn't necessary for your goals. Plus the crossover pipes are bigger, you will want to use a 2"-2.25" pipe if you can (or a 2.5" like me if you have to) for the crossover pipes from the manifolds to the turbo, that way you can get some good velocity and the turbo will spool quickly. I went with a low lift cam because I don't want to buy really expensive springs, I don't want a lot of stress on said springs (never want to change them out, lol) and the intake valve is going to have some help with the incoming air, so I didn't feel it was necessary to have a ton of lift (or duration for that matter). I think the mild duration and lift on the exhaust will also help with the turbo spooling quickly, although that shouldn't ever be a problem since I have a 6L to spin it.

Yeah, I've heard good things about the Master Powers. The ones that keep popping up on my local Craigslist are mostly in need of rebuilding. I don't mind buying one and rebuilding it myself.
Haven't even given much thought to crossover pipes and such. Still new to turbo systems and so there's plenty that I'm overlooking. Any difficulties running the larger 2.5" piping? I'm not too worried about super quick spool. I don't want slow, but fast isn't mandatory. I don't mind changing out the springs. I'd probably change them out around the 20k mi. mark, and it will take me years to accumulate that amount of miles anyways.

 

[bhasmer12]

I would use the 6 Litre, the LS3 heads flow a crazy amount of air and the bore on the 5.3 is too small to take advantage of them. some port work on them with a fast lsx intake and your choice of turbo you should make WELL over 600 at the wheels.

That's the plan. Well, most of it anyways... I've heard the Ls3 heads with their thin deck are proned to warping when put in a high boost application. But I don't plan on spinning the turbo super hard so I should be fine. That's one of the reasons I'm leaning towards using the 6.0L.
Also, no need for the FAST. Not worth the extra $600 over an Ls3 manifold to me when not even a full lb. of boost will make up the difference. Maybe in the future if I have a built motor, but I'm not after every last pony with this build.