Turbo V6 in Ford Lightning?

[SpikeEngineerng]

My first post and I'm serious about my question (I'm not joking). I have a buick V6 in my '67 CJ5 (1985 4.1) and I learned much about the engines years ago.

Today, I sent a post to another list regarding Kenny Duttweiler and then had a thought...

Why not put a twin turbo stageII V6 into my Lightning after my stock engine blows? I run it on road courses for fun and the reduction in weight on the front end should help along with the added HP. Plus, since it would be replacing a 5.4 SC V8, I think there should be enough room for all the plumbing.

How would this engine perform in a 4500 lb truck?

Thoughts? Ideas? Am I crazy?

Spike

 

[GNSCOTT]

Road course race a TT stage 2?? I don't think you'll make it around any turns ad you'll be dizzy from all those spin outs. There is a big difference between road course racing a turbo motor and a SC motor. The boost comes on much quicker wit a turbo, especially n S2 motor.To much HP in too little time. Now if ya wanna drag race that Lightening............

 

[SpikeEngineerng]

Originally posted by GNSCOTT
Road course race a TT stage 2?? I don't think you'll make it around any turns ad you'll be dizzy from all those spin outs. There is a big difference between road course racing a turbo motor and a SC motor. The boost comes on much quicker wit a turbo, especially n S2 motor.To much HP in too little time. Now if ya wanna drag race that Lightening............

I'd rather run a road course for two hours than drive straight for a few seconds. But, that's what I enjoy.

Correct me if I'm wrong, haven't stage II engines been built for running in road course cars? Why not a twin turbo where one turbo spools up quickly and the other kicks in later. I've been in a few other cars with this setup, but not with Buick engines.

Spike

 

[GNSCOTT]

I've never seen a set up like that on a Buick motor before either. I don't know how you would go about de-tuning aTT S2. How much HP are you looking to make?? Like i said before, with a turbo, unless you really ease into the gas,you get a HP spike. Buick used these motors in Indy racing, but i don't think you can build a lightening to handle like one of them I have never road raced before, but i would imagine even a high HP TTA would have some trouble, and not really be competitive.

 

[SpikeEngineerng]

How much HP? More than what I have, I guess.... (plus any extra)

Seriously, though if there was a weight savings, 500+ would work well as long as it was controllable and there was decent torque. I picked that figure because that's about the max the current engine can handle before blowing apart. One guy put on twin SC's on his L and got 800+ hp but quickly blew up the tranny.

I just got some info (while typing this) from another guy who said the bearing design has improved so a single turbo may work well and that would help on the plumbing. Yet, since I don't know what would work better, I'm open to suggestions. Like I've said in the past, all I care about is performance, not a badge.

As far as being easy on the gas is concerned, I'm used to that because of the torque I've got and a light rear end. Even the starter at Laguna Seca complimented me recently on my ability to feather the throttle when needed. But, I'm aware that the throttle response could be much more radical. Oh well...

spike

 

[GNSCOTT]

You can do 600HP on a stock block and single turbo for half the price. Stage motors really are min 600hp applications and i've never seen a TT under 1000hp. Stage blocks are quite a bit heavier too, so a well built stock block sounds like the way to go.

I want aLighteneing bad. Wish i bought one instead of the WS6. I coulda used the truck as a tax write off

 

[SpikeEngineerng]

Using the stock block and twin turbo is fine with me as long as the engine is reliable. I was reading thru one of the other forums (searching and reading) and didn't see much above 400, which is what I already have at the rear wheels (corrected HP). I'll have to pull out all my old Buick notes and books. There were lots of tips, dyno graphs, etc.

Regarding the weight, it's all relative. If I did the V6 thing, it would still be replacing a modular V8.

Thanks for the help!

Spike
BTW, for every great thing about the Lightning, there's a great thing about the WS6. In other words, you also have an awesome car. I chose the Lightning because I wanted the trunk space! Plus, I enjoy driving trucks. If you're interested, click here for a short ride (about 1:55).

 

[GNSCOTT]

If you insist on a TT then you have to go stage 2. It will be a little difficult t keep it at a 600hp level though, and spool shoud be istant .

I love the ta, but i didn't think it through. My business allows me to write off a pick up, so it wouda saved me alot. The video is awesome, now if i can sneek the TA away from the wife, i think i'll try out the new roadcourse at e-town.

 

[LikeMy6]

500 Rwhp would be far beyond the envelope on a stock block,especially without steel caps and a girdle even then you wont have much further to go. cylinder wall strength and upper block strength would be the next issue. and as far as road racing one dont even think about it. 1/4 mile blasts at that HP level only last 11 seconds or less then require a cool down, running for miles at wot wont work! at least for the production block.
Stage II blocks have much better oiling to aid in cooling and a dry sump would be needed for the extra capacity to help keep the oil temps down. A stageII motor with Stage heads and 9:1+compression with a single turbo will spool just fine, because when your road racing having the right gearing will keep the motor in the higher rpm range so spool up will be good. but the real question is will you have the Transmission that will keep up?
In indycar they kept the stage motors in the upper rpm ranges(6000-8500) and ran low boost compared to racers in the 1/4mile.if Im not mistaken they were limited to 10psi.and made 700+hp.

 

[SpikeEngineerng]

Originally posted by LikeMy6
500 Rwhp would be far beyond the envelope on a stock block,especially without steel caps and a girdle even then you wont have much further to go. cylinder wall strength and upper block strength would be the next issue. and as far as road racing one dont even think about it. 1/4 mile blasts at that HP level only last 11 seconds or less then require a cool down, running for miles at wot wont work! at least for the production block.
Stage II blocks have much better oiling to aid in cooling and a dry sump would be needed for the extra capacity to help keep the oil temps down. A stageII motor with Stage heads and 9:1+compression with a single turbo will spool just fine, because when your road racing having the right gearing will keep the motor in the higher rpm range so spool up will be good. but the real question is will you have the Transmission that will keep up?
In indycar they kept the stage motors in the upper rpm ranges(6000-8500) and ran low boost compared to racers in the 1/4mile.if Im not mistaken they were limited to 10psi.and made 700+hp.

Thanks for the reply. I originally posted here because I thought 500 to 600 HP in a Stage II block would be more reliable, even if it's at the lower end of the typical HP range. As far as the tranny is concerned, I would rather have a tranny that can keep up . The truck won't go very well without it! What automatic would you suggest?

Spike

 

[LikeMy6]

For road course use I cant recomend much of anything in automatics. thats why Nascar doesnt use em,they cant stand the heat as long as a manual. A TH400 is about as strong as you can get in an auto, that one might consider using in road course challenge.would need a LARGE cooler and as much fluid you could get the trans to carry.

Good luck.

 

[GNVAIR]

Why not just work with what you have? There are Mustang guys running well into the 7's with the 4.6 and 5.4's. Heck, JR Granatelli has a production 5.4 block in his race car and that thing runs into the 7's. Have someone design and build a sheet metal intake and turbo headers for your 5.4. Pick out a pair of decent sized turbos and have at it.

 

[SpikeEngineerng]

Originally posted by GNVAIR
Why not just work with what you have? There are Mustang guys running well into the 7's with the 4.6 and 5.4's. Heck, JR Granatelli has a production 5.4 block in his race car and that thing runs into the 7's. Have someone design and build a sheet metal intake and turbo headers for your 5.4. Pick out a pair of decent sized turbos and have at it.

Running 7's on a road course would be incredible, considering I run in the low 1:50's at Laguna Seca with I have! Wow! Over 120 seconds faster! Seriously though, I really don't care to much what it'll do in the quarter although there is a HP/Torque translation to the road course.
Although I'm considering adding a blower to what I have (it's been done, stock idle, ect. and HP numbers are over 800, but the tranny blew), or turbos, there would be a huge benefit from removing weight from the front end. That's my big interest. More HP, less front end wt.

Thanks again for the input.

Spike

 

[DynamicGN]

I also have a lightning(2001) and i was wondering what was the best chip to put in a stock lightning? I know its probly not the best place to ask this question but since I saw that someone mentioned lightning i was curious.

 

[SpikeEngineerng]

Best chip? For street performance, they're all the same. On the drag strip, any advantage one chip has over another is relatively small in comparison to the drivers. Don't bother asking on the Lightning boards, each owner will only recommend the chip they own, then a flame war will start, then the thread will be closed. BTW, I've never seen anyone say "I own XYZ, but buy ABC." Best thing to do is read the boards over there and decide what's best for you.

Regarding the V6 trannies, what manual would you recommend.

Spike

 

[GNVAIR]

Dude, you really picked the wrong engine to swap into your truck......especially with a manual trans. DO a search on the transmission forum. This subject comes up over and over again and the unianimous result is that you will spend twice what you would spend on a good TH2004r or TH400 and go slower, but if you have money burning a hole in your pocket, go right ahead. I am speaking from experience here. The Corvair in my signature has a 4 speed behind the GN engine. It isnt all its cracked up to be.
If you want a great handling, lightweight, turbo charged truck, then why not just go buy a Syclone?

 

[SpikeEngineerng]

Originally posted by GNVAIR
Dude, you really picked the wrong engine to swap into your truck......especially with a manual trans. DO a search on the transmission forum. This subject comes up over and over again and the unianimous result is that you will spend twice what you would spend on a good TH2004r or TH400 and go slower, but if you have money burning a hole in your pocket, go right ahead. I am speaking from experience here. The Corvair in my signature has a 4 speed behind the GN engine. It isnt all its cracked up to be.
If you want a great handling, lightweight, turbo charged truck, then why not just go buy a Syclone?

Thanks for the reply. Earlier in the thread, another member stated that an auto tanny wouldn't work well so I asked the question about the manual. I'll do a search in the tranny section.

Regarding the engine swap, I haven't yet picked an engine and I am considering different options. Why do you think it's a bad swap? I'm aware of some of the problems but am interested in your opinion. You put a V6 in your Corvair instead of a V8 so it must have its advantages.

As far as getting a Syclone, I wanted to years ago but am not as interested now as I was then. Plus, I do tow and haul stuff on occasion and need the capacity for that. Too bad I've never seen one on a road course because it would be fun to compare on a track instead of on the internet or at the drag strip (where I know they generally win).

 

[GNVAIR]

No, you can build up a TH2004r to withstand 800+ horsepower. Even easier would be a TH400
I put the Buick V6 in my car since I needed room. The car had a 350 Chevy mounted mid engine. I needed a V6 and the Buick was what I had. Trust me, I would have used a TH2004r in there if it would fit. Eventually I will be using a 4L60E C5 Vette transaxle.
The Buicks dont work well with a stick. I know. You sound like you know it all already, so I will leave it at this. You asked for advice, I gave mine like the others did. You just dont seem to understand what we are trying to tell you. You picked the wrong vehicle. You can easily sink $20K + plus installing a Stage II motor, GM tranny, electronics, etc.
It just seems like a waste to me.

 

[SpikeEngineerng]

Originally posted by GNVAIR
...You just dont seem to understand what we are trying to tell you. You picked the wrong vehicle...

Sorry I asked. I didn't realize that when one member suggested that I use a stock V6 block, one suggested a manual tranny, and you suggested something else (and I responded), that "I didn't understand."

Oh well. Thanks anyways. I guess we have different ideas on what's a waste of money. Heck, you have four cars and I'd only consider owning one of them.

By any chance, are you the owner of the 165 mph class Corvair in the Open road racing events? If so, that's a NICE car.

Spike

 

[GNVAIR]

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