Turbo V6 Camaro

[dezldave961]

Dang, man, that's a rough find. Go ahead and pull back to survey the landscape and take your mind off this project for however long you want. This stuff is meant to be an entertaining escape from day-to-day headaches, so only let these issues get dealt with when you choose.

I was in the same spot after getting to work on mine and others for "fun" while between deployments and housing moves, but I will immediately move them to the back burner when it's not something I can deal with at that time, for whatever reason.

For what it's worth, that Comp-G looks like a decent ride (almost bought one 3yrs ago to swap my Regal stuff into), so maybe killing time trying to do some cleanup to make it worth a couple pennies more could be more "chill" work for a bit.

 

[Jon Early]

The Comp G is one of those cars that looks a lot better on pictures than it does in person, but still not bad. I took a short break from it, but unfortunately need to keep moving since it's not being stored on my property.

After some time to think about it, I decided to keep the L32 with the Grand Prix. I'm going to pull it out, clean it up, remove that piston, rering it, hone the cylinder, slap it back together and hope for the best. I plan to get some extra money out of it by selling it as a runner, but also by selling some of the low hanging fruit. The power log is for sale if anyone is interested. The aeroforce gauges and gauge pods will be for sale soon, and the wideband will be saved for my GN. I have the original pillar trim and a nice stock manifold to throw on, so it should actually look a lot nicer when I'm done.

As for the Camaro, I decided that my bad luck is trying to tell me something. I'm just going to throw all the power at my L36 and hope it lasts a while. I know it's a good runner with no issues, which is all I ask at this point. I'll just skip upgrading the fuel system any further which will probably limit me to about 500hp anyway. Whenever I get bored with that, I guess I'll just find a junk engine and send it to the machine shop with some rods and pistons.

 

[Jon Early]

The garage plan has changed a bit. The show must go on. Not only do I have a car disassembled at a friend's house, but my GN is in a storage spot that will not be adequate come winter time. My two car garage is pretty grid locked as it is which makes the dirty rust repairs inhibitive and bringing a second engine into the mix impossible. SO! I decided that I'm going to start reassembling the Camaro engine now. I have the expensive parts. (In theory) I just need to do it. Let's break it down.

Opps. I forgot that I need to delete the balance shaft. I won't be getting too far today without a Mopar 440 cam bearing.

The c-clip holding the ball bearing in place was not particularly easy to remove, but I got it.

With the balance shaft removed from the block, I finally had a use for the cam bearing tool I bought about 5 years ago. I saw it on the tool truck and I felt like I needed it.

Out comes the rear bearing.

At this point, I felt like it was a good time to pull some parts off the shelves. It didn't go as ceremoniously as one would expect though. Check out these modified lifters I bought from a certain 3800 supplier. I'm not going to bash them until they have had a chance to respond to my email. Needless to say, I will not be using their product. Who knows what else might be hiding inside!

Besides needing to pick these big burrs out of a few lifters, I was also very unimpressed with the rollers which randomly wanted to lock up. These do not seem like an upgrade from my 160k mile factory lifters.

I am looking for suggestions, but I have heard enough garbage reviews about LS7 lifters and anything that the 3800 suppliers have to offer that I'm ready to spend the big bucks on a set of Johnson's or Morels. However, the idea of setting those up without adjustable rockers will not make me feel great about the purchase.

I guess there's only one thing left I can do today. L36, meet ST2!

 

[Chuck Leeper]

I am looking for suggestions, but I have heard enough garbage reviews about LS7 lifters

That's odd. LOTS of engine with all 8 cyls making big power with those same lifters.

 

[Jon Early]

That's odd. LOTS of engine with all 8 cyls making big power with those same lifters.

They used to anyway. Supposedly GM starting cutting costs a few years ago and the quality is not as good. Some people still think you're fine if you get genuine parts from the dealer, but I don't have enough experience with any of them to say for myself. I gave this set a shot thinking I could trust the company doing the modifications. Apparently not.

 

[Chuck Leeper]

They used to anyway. Supposedly GM starting cutting costs a few years ago and the quality is not as good. Some people still think you're fine if you get genuine parts from the dealer, but I don't have enough experience with any of them to say for myself. I gave this set a shot thinking I could trust the company doing the modifications. Apparently not.

Jon, there's considerable discussion on the topic over on LS1tech.com
You may get more info from those guys as to what's the current choices.
My LS in my 55, has the std GM lifters in it, as do several other LS based engines I've worked with.

 

[Jon Early]

Jon, there's considerable discussion on the topic over on LS1tech.com
You may get more info from those guys as to what's the current choices.
My LS in my 55, has the std GM lifters in it, as do several other LS based engines I've worked with.

I went over to LS1tech this morning. I hate to admit it, but there are definitely better conversations going on over there than in the 3800 world. lol

I am still in a small pickle, but Genuine GM LS7 lifters are back on the table. I feel like my "build" is mild enough that I can get away with good LS7 lifters as many other people have in the past. Here are my key takeaways.

-My V6 is not going to revving much past the 7000 rpms that a factory LS7 would unless I miss a shift.
-My stock valvetrain is probably pretty heavy, but I can certainly lighten it up a lot with aluminum roller rockers and lighter pushrods.
-My valve springs are pretty light compared to a lot of LS builds.
-I still don't want to deal with the pain of tight preloads.

I will keep doing my research. Thanks Chuck!

 

[dezldave961]

The 3800 crowd has all but dissipated online, aside from about 5 of us who were active enough to learn while that market grew, and know where the bodies are buried. Most still posting on FB or the trickling of forum activity are newbies who bought their car within the past couple years for pennies, hoping to speed-run to the performance levels it took us a decade to achieve with trial & error (learning N/A was useless on these, the M90 has to stand on its head to maybe tickle 400whp, and turbo is the path to 600+ until drivetrain issues arise).

I originally bought Morels for my build, but spun a bearing in 2021 and set them aside for a set of "LS7" ones in the replacement engine (possibly knock-offs, who knows). I don't spin my setup past ~6500, especially after starving it accidentally at 7k that one time, but some recent upgrades may encourage me, again.

If you do some basic oiling mods and upgrade the full valvetrain (lifters, pushrods, rockers, springs, retainers, chain, etc.), there's no reason you can't explore whatever RPM range your dyno curve says it's happy to utilize.

 

[Jon Early]

The 3800 crowd has all but dissipated online, aside from about 5 of us who were active enough to learn while that market grew, and know where the bodies are buried. Most still posting on FB or the trickling of forum activity are newbies who bought their car within the past couple years for pennies, hoping to speed-run to the performance levels it took us a decade to achieve with trial & error (learning N/A was useless on these, the M90 has to stand on its head to maybe tickle 400whp, and turbo is the path to 600+ until drivetrain issues arise).

I originally bought Morels for my build, but spun a bearing in 2021 and set them aside for a set of "LS7" ones in the replacement engine (possibly knock-offs, who knows). I don't spin my setup past ~6500, especially after starving it accidentally at 7k that one time, but some recent upgrades may encourage me, again.

If you do some basic oiling mods and upgrade the full valvetrain (lifters, pushrods, rockers, springs, retainers, chain, etc.), there's no reason you can't explore whatever RPM range your dyno curve says it's happy to utilize.

At least in terms of people who know what they're talking about about, I'd agree. It's too bad. I really like talking to some of those guys (You included!) because I always learn a lot. I'm starting to pick up the dos and don'ts and what parts are a waste of money, but it's painful to watch others with more resources than myself just throw the catalog at something and get nowhere. When I went to buy those those Intense Stage 3 heads, I had to remove them myself from a Grand Prix with an un-ported Gen V blower with a 3.0 pulley, stock throttle, no intercooler, and pretty small injectors. It was already a little odd IMO, but then I pulled the heads off the ARP studs and found an old school Intense short block. He wouldn't sell it to me, but I still don't believe I'd ever need it anyway. Frankly, he won't either.

I ended up ordering a set of Chevy Performance lifters from Summit. They're a little on the expensive side, but I figured it was a solid place to spend money for the piece of mind. I do have small reservations just because one of my 3800 buddies just trashed one of these exact lifters on Power Tour. However, he also admitted that the engine wasn't super healthy to begin with (well over 200k miles on the bottom end) and had a history of trashing lifters pretty quickly in the same bore. I think it makes more sense to blame the overall ragged engine instead of the part which is probably where a lot of others are seeing issues as well.

Oiling mods you say? Tell me more. I've done none and Turbocharged400sbc on the other forums has tried to school me on it a bit. His way of explaining things is humorous but it's not getting anywhere with me. He's showed me some things about a crank scraper under #3 that's supposed to help a ton with windage, but I don't understand what forces I'm trying to catch if that makes sense. I don't want to build it wrong and end up doing more harm than good. What would you try to fix?

My cam is probably going to limit my usable rpm, but I'm probably going to remove one of those Intense valve springs and figure out what it is before assuming anything. I have 150s on the shelf and ZZP locks and retainers on my old heads, but the intense stuff all looks a lot beefier. The valves are not stock, so I'm not even sure if my locks and retainers will work on there. I guess if I remove one spring and determine it to be about the same as what I already have I'll just go with them. I have a double roller timing set which was machined by Jason Farnsworth. My 440 cam bearing for deleting the balance shaft comes today. I'm on the fence about getting 1.6 roller rockers. I don't think I necessarily need them yet, but they'll make the valve train a lot lighter if ever want this thing to scream past 7k.

 

[dezldave961]

Good luck with the lifters, should be fine. Ya, James (turbo400sbc) is a character. I BS'd with him when I picked up a set of ported heads from his buddy 7-8mo ago, and keep in touch to bounce ideas off of. He's big on that oilpan mod, and sent me home with one, too. I'll mess with it when I dig further into my RWD build that's got $3-5k in parts sitting in the corner.

I'm running stock rockers on mine, not sure if it's super necessary to upgrade, although I'll probably do trunions at some point. I'm more worried about higher pressure deflection and consistency, which rollers help with. I doubt my ~0.540" lift cam on ~130# springs are really stressing them too bad, but the big 0.603-605" lift cam with 150#-ish springs will be on T&D's to not worry for my MP112 build later.

 

[Jon Early]

It's kind of off topic at this point since I'm not planning to use the L32 from the Grand Prix in my Camaro anymore. However, I started the story here and here is where I'm going to finish it. I went to my buddies to finish removing the battered engine yesterday.

It's not nearly as easy to do this in the grass with a tractor as it is in my own driveway, but we got the job done. Going back in is going to be a lot more difficult, but we'll cross that bridge when it comes.

This engine is disgusting, and pulling the drain plug did not bring any more confidence. The oil was full of glitter. I'm hoping that it's mostly little bits of cylinder wall and that my hone and re-ring job can at least serve as a band aid, but we'll see. Since one rod is coming out, I'm definitely pulling all the other caps to make sure they're still smooth. If not I guess I'll try my hand at bearing slapping. I don't have much to lose at this point. I'll be happy just to get my money back from this car.

Camaro update:
The supplier/maker of my modified lifters responded with a return shipping label. They want to send me a new set. Fair enough! I'm still not likely to use them, but I'll give them a chance. If they're clean with good rollers, I'll throw them on the shelf for use in a future budget-minded endeavor.

 

[Jon Early]

The house is starting to look really nice, but I haven't had much time for the garage! Here's a couple shots of me foolishly installing a Dodge 440 cam bearing in the balance shaft hole backwards because I didn't notice that the back side was chamfered.... Oh well.

It just took a small bit off where the bearing hadn't yet entered the bore. With the oiling hole rotated 180 degrees from the block hole, this will make a good plug and introduce a bit more oil pressure down stream.

Now I have to make sure that this Rollmaster double row timing set is going to fit like I hope. I ended up having Jason Farnsworth machine the chamfer into it. This was tough to install, but it looks great!

Now I have to pull it back off and clean everything properly. Jason sprayed the timing set with cosmoline before shipping which disintegrated/melted the rubber band. I was able to chip most of the pieces off by hand, but I'll feel a lot better if it took a bath in solvent. Hopefully that will dissolve what's left.

 

[Jon Early]

Disaster zone!!

I decided it was time to take all the parts that won't be going back on the car over to the scrap yard. Freeing up that space was a huge weight off my shoulders.

Now I can get back to the car, and I want the engine painted.

I'll paint the water pump later. Much like the GN, I think this car is going to get a lot of new hardware as well.

I think the next step is going to be pulling this back off the stand so that I can put the rear cover and flywheel back on. I'll need to make a flywheel holding tool so that I can torque the cam bolt because 75 ft/lbs + 90 degrees is going to take some serious leverage that my typical prybar approach will not withstand.

Does anybody know if it's okay to reuse the cam bolt?

 

[dezldave961]

You can re-use in a pinch. Just toss some red Loctite on there and hit the spec (did that in my poor college days while I learned, and put thousands of cross-country miles on it). It's not perfect, but it's a pretty good grade bolt. Not everyone has the luxury of infinite time and funds to always have everything available for assembly, although it's a nice peace of mind.

 

[Jon Early]

You can re-use in a pinch. Just toss some red Loctite on there and hit the spec (did that in my poor college days while I learned, and put thousands of cross-country miles on it). It's not perfect, but it's a pretty good grade bolt. Not everyone has the luxury of infinite time and funds to always have everything available for assembly, although it's a nice peace of mind.

I'll reuse mine then. I'm a little uneasy about throwing a bunch of nice parts on an L36. If I can max out the 80# injectors with E85 without breaking a rod or ring land, I'll be happy. I think the max of 80s on E85 will be around 500whp, but we'll see.

I've been reluctant to share too many details about he Comp G on socials due to the fact that I need to sell it soon. However, you've already seen the score and I don't think this site gets a lot of 3800 traffic. Here's what I did.

The offending piston was pulled out, and the rings were found in-tact. For a variety of reasons, I decided to reuse them. Then I honed the cylinder for several minutes... Yeah, I know it's not the best practice, but I really wanted to do a number on that score. It wasn't very effective, so let's hope I didn't lose too much spring tension by doing this.

I'm going to pretend I didn't see this....

I'm going to clean this up, and pretend I didn't see it either.

The piston was put back in with assembly lube on the bearing and torqued to factory spec. I ran out of RTV, so the rest of the pan gasket was made of anaerobic gasket maker. Good enough for this zombie.

Before throwing the heads on, I did a little more investigating. I felt a little better when I saw the clear signs of a bolt making its way to the combustion chamber. Since I know that the previous owner did not have these heads off. The engine must have ran with the score in the cylinder wall for quite a while.

Heads are installed

but I'm keeping these old school modified stock high ratio rockers. A set of factory rockers went in their place.

It was at this point I decided I had very little to lose by removing the intercooler kit. It was a big reason why I found the car to be a great deal. It doesn't make the car worth any more or less on the used car market though. I might as well try to sell it separately or throw it on the shelf for a future project.

I had a DIY ported Gen V LIM on the shelf I got for free, so I'm going to paint that and keep the fancy ZZP ported LIM with the intercooler kit.

 

[Jon Early]

Stock rockers and valve covers are torqued down. Next is the intake.

I cleaned up and threw on some very lightly used metal intake gaskets. I tend to keep them around for projects like this. I'm sure they'll outlast the rest of the engine.

The free ported intake almost looks good enough for me to feel bad putting it on this ragged engine! Almost.

 

[dezldave961]

Scary find, but hopefully it's resilient enough to live for the next owner.

What's up with that odd notching on the ported LIM at the front PCV passage and corner of the S/C outlet? Might just want to fill with some JB or RTV to isolate from the PCV path before you're back at square-one with smoking issues.

 

[Jon Early]

Scary find, but hopefully it's resilient enough to live for the next owner.

What's up with that odd notching on the ported LIM at the front PCV passage and corner of the S/C outlet? Might just want to fill with some JB or RTV to isolate from the PCV path before you're back at square-one with smoking issues.

The black ported intake or the silver on I have on the engine? I know the black one has ZZPs modification for the intercooler so that you can retain the PCV. I don't know what's going on with the silver one. It's hard to tell in the picture, but it's already filled up with JB Weld by the previous owner. I was going to skim some RTV over it before the gasket goes on.

 

[dezldave961]

Ah, I remember when they tried the path on the black LIM, but it didn't flow enough and they redesigned a couple more times before changing to the current core that leaves stock paths available.

The silver one seems like someone's Dremel or mill got away from them at the corner near Cyl 1 port and PCV path.

 

[Jon Early]

Ah, I remember when they tried the path on the black LIM, but it didn't flow enough and they redesigned a couple more times before changing to the current core that leaves stock paths available.

The silver one seems like someone's Dremel or mill got away from them at the corner near Cyl 1 port and PCV path.

So if someone wanted to run this intake and intercooler, would they be better off just blocking that passage up and running a valve cover breather? That passage does seem insanely small if that's what the entire crankcase is supposed to breathe through.