I have read about some of the negatives in vacuum conversions, mainly holding boost on the line. I haven't seen any complaints/negatives on hydroboost. What are the downsides of hydroboost. This PM unit is killing me and I'm not sure which way to go. My street driving consists of driving to the track BTW.
vacuum vs hydroboost
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POWERBRAKEBOB
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Hydroboost Vs Vacuum Vs Powermaster
HI GUYS! Power Brake Bob here. It's been awhile since we have been here. For some reason, we were getting a lot of heat about the Hydroboost systems from other members. I would like to go over some of the points I made over the last 3 years. Buick knew that turbocharging a vacuum booster was not a great idea, and did not equip the GN's with the standard Regal vacuum booster for a reason. It won't work! Turbocharging the vacuum hose will blow it off the check valve, and if it held, the check valve can blow apart, and no power brakes! They went with the Powermaster, because there was no vacuum involved. The basic cylinder portion of the PM is rebuildable, and really doesn't give the problems. The main problem is the 12v motor/pump uses phenolic vanes to pump brake fluid up to 2600psi to charge the accumulator. Brake fluid is not a lubricant and the vanes wear quickly. When the pump cannot reach the 2600psi to open the pressure switch to shut off the pump, it tries to run continuously, wearing out faster. The accumulators and switches also give trouble. The 12v pumps are not rebuildable, and getting scarce. Vacuum brake conversions seem simple to do, and we have done them. The hard part is changing the brake pedal Everytime I would see one of those customers with the vacuum set up, they would give me hell about the hard pedal. The HYDROBOOST systems run off of the power steering pump, which is always circulating fluid pressure for instant response. If the engine is running, you have power brakes. If the engine is not running, there is an accumulator thar stores high pressure for 3 stops with full power. The hydroboost can not fail. The only problem they will have after 200,000 miles is that they can leak p/s fluid. The h/b is also rebuildable. if that happens. The HYDROBOOST can deliver up to 2000psi to the calipers, and will easily power 4 wheel disc, if you want. Our units are all new, with a 1 year warranty. They bolt right in WITHOUT CHANGING THE PEDAL. Add the new hoses and it's done, The master cyl is easily replaceable by it self, They usually last 10-12 years. We were featured on HORSEPOWER T.V., AND TRUCKS T.V. (THE SGT. ROCK TRUCK). We will also have an installation article in SUPER CHEVY MAG on Ian Zeiring's Camaro that we installed on his "Overhaulin" car, December issue, I think. The hydrobost can be seen at POWERBRAKESONLINE.COM
HI GUYS! Power Brake Bob here. It's been awhile since we have been here. For some reason, we were getting a lot of heat about the Hydroboost systems from other members. I would like to go over some of the points I made over the last 3 years. Buick knew that turbocharging a vacuum booster was not a great idea, and did not equip the GN's with the standard Regal vacuum booster for a reason. It won't work! Turbocharging the vacuum hose will blow it off the check valve, and if it held, the check valve can blow apart, and no power brakes! They went with the Powermaster, because there was no vacuum involved. The basic cylinder portion of the PM is rebuildable, and really doesn't give the problems. The main problem is the 12v motor/pump uses phenolic vanes to pump brake fluid up to 2600psi to charge the accumulator. Brake fluid is not a lubricant and the vanes wear quickly. When the pump cannot reach the 2600psi to open the pressure switch to shut off the pump, it tries to run continuously, wearing out faster. The accumulators and switches also give trouble. The 12v pumps are not rebuildable, and getting scarce. Vacuum brake conversions seem simple to do, and we have done them. The hard part is changing the brake pedal Everytime I would see one of those customers with the vacuum set up, they would give me hell about the hard pedal. The HYDROBOOST systems run off of the power steering pump, which is always circulating fluid pressure for instant response. If the engine is running, you have power brakes. If the engine is not running, there is an accumulator thar stores high pressure for 3 stops with full power. The hydroboost can not fail. The only problem they will have after 200,000 miles is that they can leak p/s fluid. The h/b is also rebuildable. if that happens. The HYDROBOOST can deliver up to 2000psi to the calipers, and will easily power 4 wheel disc, if you want. Our units are all new, with a 1 year warranty. They bolt right in WITHOUT CHANGING THE PEDAL. Add the new hoses and it's done, The master cyl is easily replaceable by it self, They usually last 10-12 years. We were featured on HORSEPOWER T.V., AND TRUCKS T.V. (THE SGT. ROCK TRUCK). We will also have an installation article in SUPER CHEVY MAG on Ian Zeiring's Camaro that we installed on his "Overhaulin" car, December issue, I think. The hydrobost can be seen at POWERBRAKESONLINE.COM
POWERBRAKEBOB
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Hydroboost Vs Vacuum Vs Powermaster
Thanks for asking. The Hydroboost, master cyl, and bracket assy Lists out at $900.00. To TURBOBUICK.COM members mention you saw it, and your discounted price would be $550.00. The hose set to connect in rubber type hoses come out to $145.00, and in stainless braided net cost is $225.00. We have seen guys able to pull 10lbs of boost and more with the brake locked. The car just leaps off the line with the turbo spooled up.
Thanks for asking. The Hydroboost, master cyl, and bracket assy Lists out at $900.00. To TURBOBUICK.COM members mention you saw it, and your discounted price would be $550.00. The hose set to connect in rubber type hoses come out to $145.00, and in stainless braided net cost is $225.00. We have seen guys able to pull 10lbs of boost and more with the brake locked. The car just leaps off the line with the turbo spooled up.
POWERBRAKEBOB said:
LOL, try looking under the hood of a 1989 Turbo Trans Am.
I'll give you a clue, there's a vacuum power booster there.
Got any stopping distances for a GN equipped with your system?.
$900 you've got to be kidding?.
BTW, since the spool valve isn't directly connected to the pedal, can you absolutely guarantee, the brakes will ever self-apply or be slow releasing?.
This will save some bandwidth
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/showthread.php?t=151383&page=4
what holds more boost on the line
Bruce you have like a million posts, what are the downsides to the hydroboost. I have seen a lot of guys complaining about not being to spool up on the line with the vac. conversions. How do the two compare. The PM is expensive, but so is the HB, but HB seems more reliable. I haven't seen any negatives to HB besides cost. Have you ,or anyone else that will comment ,tried this system? I want what will work the "best" for the "longest"...don't want to get ripped on something(vac or HB!) and have to spend more $ to get off the line... and back to it again safely!
Bruce you have like a million posts, what are the downsides to the hydroboost. I have seen a lot of guys complaining about not being to spool up on the line with the vac. conversions. How do the two compare. The PM is expensive, but so is the HB, but HB seems more reliable. I haven't seen any negatives to HB besides cost. Have you ,or anyone else that will comment ,tried this system? I want what will work the "best" for the "longest"...don't want to get ripped on something(vac or HB!) and have to spend more $ to get off the line... and back to it again safely!
POWERBRAKEBOB
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Hydroboost Vs Vacuum Vs Powermaster
SO, BRUCE, WHY DON'T YOU BUY AN 89 PONTIAC? The Syclones and Typhoons tried to get away with vacuum boosters, and they hate them. The only guys who make all the noise against Hydroboost are you and Mr Red Regal T. He sells used Regal vacuum boosters for his gas money, but if the car is involved in an accident, will he be LIABLE for used brake systems on someone else's car? Do you or he design brake systems? Do you know more than the engineers at Buick? Are you or he in the brake business? Would you really step up and tell us what business you are in? If the brakes work so well on These cars, why is the subject constantly on this FORUM? The BRAKES ARE FAILING ON THESE CARS. IT IS A DANGEROUS SITUATION. They were built with the same brakes as an S10 PICKUP! The GN weighs 1000lbs more,and is MUCH FASTER. We will be happy to sell a new or rebuilt vacuum booster set up and a vacuum pump to go with it. Why? We did that 15 years ago. The owners were never happy, and Buick never recalled ANY GN's to convert them to vacuum. The liability of the vacuum hose blowing off under boost was something they were aware of. Hence, the POWERMASTER. We installed 4 wheel disc (B body) and a hydroboost on Bulgari's GN in 1986. the car had 14 miles on it, and was going to Duttweiler's after we finished it. Their plans were to have the horsepower and the brakes to travel Europe (Italy) at very high speeds. Mission accomplished. I don't understand why you feel that your opinion is the only one that counts when people's brake are failing? You have not offered any thing that is superior in stopping power yet. Show us what you got.
SO, BRUCE, WHY DON'T YOU BUY AN 89 PONTIAC? The Syclones and Typhoons tried to get away with vacuum boosters, and they hate them. The only guys who make all the noise against Hydroboost are you and Mr Red Regal T. He sells used Regal vacuum boosters for his gas money, but if the car is involved in an accident, will he be LIABLE for used brake systems on someone else's car? Do you or he design brake systems? Do you know more than the engineers at Buick? Are you or he in the brake business? Would you really step up and tell us what business you are in? If the brakes work so well on These cars, why is the subject constantly on this FORUM? The BRAKES ARE FAILING ON THESE CARS. IT IS A DANGEROUS SITUATION. They were built with the same brakes as an S10 PICKUP! The GN weighs 1000lbs more,and is MUCH FASTER. We will be happy to sell a new or rebuilt vacuum booster set up and a vacuum pump to go with it. Why? We did that 15 years ago. The owners were never happy, and Buick never recalled ANY GN's to convert them to vacuum. The liability of the vacuum hose blowing off under boost was something they were aware of. Hence, the POWERMASTER. We installed 4 wheel disc (B body) and a hydroboost on Bulgari's GN in 1986. the car had 14 miles on it, and was going to Duttweiler's after we finished it. Their plans were to have the horsepower and the brakes to travel Europe (Italy) at very high speeds. Mission accomplished. I don't understand why you feel that your opinion is the only one that counts when people's brake are failing? You have not offered any thing that is superior in stopping power yet. Show us what you got.
I was over as performance trans in vegas this week and
len checked out my car for me, its and 85 with hydroboost that i converted to LC2 and kept the hydroboost, he said the hydroboost were much beeter at holding boost than vaccum or powermaster.
len checked out my car for me, its and 85 with hydroboost that i converted to LC2 and kept the hydroboost, he said the hydroboost were much beeter at holding boost than vaccum or powermaster.
POWERBRAKEBOB said:
Because I wanted an 87 GN.
What RedRegalT does, or doesnt do, is for you to take up with him. If you want to hijack the thread, fine, but it doesn't serve you to go off on tangents.
Really? you're saying the Syclones had a booster problem?. Got a link?. From what I've read, their problems were with the ABS units. BTW, Syclones, aren't G-Bodies.
Let's see you libility statements. Let's see where and what you'll accept libility for.
I've never claimed to be a brake expert, so far it's YOU that wants to give that impression. Thou so far, most all your facts are more like opinions.
You might try reading the link I provided where I documented what my stopping distances are.
Again, let's see some stopping distance numbers of your setup on a G-Body.
I'm not the one offering opinions, you are, I posted numbers to back up what I've said. So far your the one that hasn't posted any numbers relevent to this thread.
Also, please from refrain from lying, it does nothing but ruin you credibility, your statement *You have not offered any thing that is superior in stopping power yet.*, is a lie, I've posted my stopping distances here.
BTW, if I'm not mistaken aren't the NEW Saturn Redlines, using vacuum assist for their brakes?.
And I'm eagerly awaiting reading up the specifics of you brake liability claim. Thanks for mentioning that.
somebody post up about HB that has it
Can somebody PLEASE tell me if there are any negatives to hydro boost...everyone says you can hold more boost. Why wont HB users post up.. or are there any?! It seems there are some serious personality conflicts here but I want to get opinions from users of HB on 86-87 GNs. Help me out guys!!!!!!!!
Can somebody PLEASE tell me if there are any negatives to hydro boost...everyone says you can hold more boost. Why wont HB users post up.. or are there any?! It seems there are some serious personality conflicts here but I want to get opinions from users of HB on 86-87 GNs. Help me out guys!!!!!!!!
8AV8 said:
I posted a link, where the downsides are talked about. The spool valve can be a problem.
It's not personal, it's about being accurate and factual.
The hydroboost, can develope more pressure then a vac., or PM, but, IMO there are more downsides to the HB, then advantages.
It would be interesting to have someone in the know from GM post why they dropped the HB in favor of the PM, and then why the TTA uses vacuum.
2 things I dont like about the hydroboost is when a leak of the assist cylinder occurs it will happen gradually and you wont realize it until you find your driver side floor pan wet with power steering fluid. That is for real and can occur if the rear seal lets go.
GM did start using the HB set ups on the full size truck lines (mostly Tahoes and Yukons) again back in 99, but by 2004 they had slowly started using the vaccum again because of reliability issues with the assist units leaking. I encountered this on quite a few of the late model GM trucks while running a shop last year. My '05 1500 Sierra has a HUGE vacuum booster manufactured by Bosch as does my buddies '04 Tahoe.
In the old days of the HB as used on 4.3 V6 diesel and 350 diesels of the late 70's to mid 80's, they had issues with belt slippage which when it occurred you not only lost the power steering (obviously) but also the power brakes.
There are MANY turbocharged cars out there utilizing vacuum assisted brakes.
The 78-82 turbo Buicks (Regals, Centurys, LeSabres as well as the 80-81 turbo Monte Carlos) used vacuum. Look under the hood of any new Audi, Volkswagon, Volvo or Saab as all of them utilize vacuum.
Ford used vacuum on all the 84-86 Mustang SVO's, 83-86 Thunderbird Turbo Coupes, Merkur XR4ti, turbo Escorts. GM did used it on 86-90 turbo 2.0 4 cylinder Sunbirds and Grand Am as well as Buick Skyhawks. Chrysler did as well on ALL the 2.2 turbo cars. Then you have the plethora of Japanese imports with turbos (Subaru's, Mitsubishis, Toyotas, Nissans, etc)
Yes, it could be a cost issue of vacuum vs hydro. But it is also from a simplicity and reliabilty stand point too. Vacuum has the feel that most people are used to and there is less plumbing involved. Yes, I have coverted my Buick to vacuum and I did that back at the end of 2000 utilizing a used unit from a junk yard. It did it from a cost stand point since buying a vacuum booster, master cylinder and pedal were cheaper than buying a new accumulator, pressure switch or pump motor for the Powermaster.
I have not had any issues with my vacuum set up and the power assist does feel greater than with the Powermaster. Holding boost with the stock 10.5" front brakes was not the greatest, but once I swapped to the 12" b body set up (with a b body master cylinder) it was night and day difference and the braking power is unbelievable. I also have my father driving around in his turbo Buick powered 88 Monte SS using his factory master cylinder and booster. I have seen a lot of guys posting on here trying to convert to vacuum complaining that it doesnt work, but I also feel that there are reasons such as:
Improper vacuum hook up location
Defective power brake booster
Defective check valve
internal engine problem not building enough manifold vacuum
or even
Not swapping pedal since the pivot point on the Powermaster is in a totally different location changing the leverage point to the push rod.
I guess the reason why I am rambling like this is that IF there was such a liability issue with hoses blowing off while driving or loosing the assist, then I am sure the manufacturers would have picked some other set up for the vehicles I listed. But it should also be pointed out that just about every manufacturer adds hose clamps on the vacuum line to the booster to avoid that situation.
I understand where POWERBRAKEBOB is coming from and obviously selling hydroboost set ups is his bread and butter, so I am not knocking him. But I also want people to make an educated decision since there are people that are not as educated and dont want to spend money twice.
GM did start using the HB set ups on the full size truck lines (mostly Tahoes and Yukons) again back in 99, but by 2004 they had slowly started using the vaccum again because of reliability issues with the assist units leaking. I encountered this on quite a few of the late model GM trucks while running a shop last year. My '05 1500 Sierra has a HUGE vacuum booster manufactured by Bosch as does my buddies '04 Tahoe.
In the old days of the HB as used on 4.3 V6 diesel and 350 diesels of the late 70's to mid 80's, they had issues with belt slippage which when it occurred you not only lost the power steering (obviously) but also the power brakes.
There are MANY turbocharged cars out there utilizing vacuum assisted brakes.
The 78-82 turbo Buicks (Regals, Centurys, LeSabres as well as the 80-81 turbo Monte Carlos) used vacuum. Look under the hood of any new Audi, Volkswagon, Volvo or Saab as all of them utilize vacuum.
Ford used vacuum on all the 84-86 Mustang SVO's, 83-86 Thunderbird Turbo Coupes, Merkur XR4ti, turbo Escorts. GM did used it on 86-90 turbo 2.0 4 cylinder Sunbirds and Grand Am as well as Buick Skyhawks. Chrysler did as well on ALL the 2.2 turbo cars. Then you have the plethora of Japanese imports with turbos (Subaru's, Mitsubishis, Toyotas, Nissans, etc)
Yes, it could be a cost issue of vacuum vs hydro. But it is also from a simplicity and reliabilty stand point too. Vacuum has the feel that most people are used to and there is less plumbing involved. Yes, I have coverted my Buick to vacuum and I did that back at the end of 2000 utilizing a used unit from a junk yard. It did it from a cost stand point since buying a vacuum booster, master cylinder and pedal were cheaper than buying a new accumulator, pressure switch or pump motor for the Powermaster.
I have not had any issues with my vacuum set up and the power assist does feel greater than with the Powermaster. Holding boost with the stock 10.5" front brakes was not the greatest, but once I swapped to the 12" b body set up (with a b body master cylinder) it was night and day difference and the braking power is unbelievable. I also have my father driving around in his turbo Buick powered 88 Monte SS using his factory master cylinder and booster. I have seen a lot of guys posting on here trying to convert to vacuum complaining that it doesnt work, but I also feel that there are reasons such as:
Improper vacuum hook up location
Defective power brake booster
Defective check valve
internal engine problem not building enough manifold vacuum
or even
Not swapping pedal since the pivot point on the Powermaster is in a totally different location changing the leverage point to the push rod.
I guess the reason why I am rambling like this is that IF there was such a liability issue with hoses blowing off while driving or loosing the assist, then I am sure the manufacturers would have picked some other set up for the vehicles I listed. But it should also be pointed out that just about every manufacturer adds hose clamps on the vacuum line to the booster to avoid that situation.
I understand where POWERBRAKEBOB is coming from and obviously selling hydroboost set ups is his bread and butter, so I am not knocking him. But I also want people to make an educated decision since there are people that are not as educated and dont want to spend money twice.
bruce said:
Its kind of funny because when I bought it I was under the assumption that it would also have the rear disc brakes like all the other 99-up body style Silverados and Sierras. It turns out that '04 was the last year for that. Some research found GM had lots of reliability issues with the discs and hydroboosts on the 1/2 ton trucks. I found an article online that GM teamed up with Bosch engineers to design a new braking system for the '05's. The end results are finally a braking system that is over engineered. The brakes on my '05 are over kill with 13" front rotors, 12" rear drums, dual piston PBR calipers and an enormous master cylinder and booster.
I've had my hydroboost equipped GN for almost 11 years and I will never convert to anything else. Braking power is fine. I run good rubber up front and have no problem locking the wheels if need be. I even ended up with 255-50-16 BFG drag radials up front for a short time. If I stomped the pedal, I could lock them but if I eased into them like a normal person, there wasn't quite enough power to lock them. Still, more than enough power for any street tire, for a couple stops anyway, before fade sets in. Pedal feel also is a little better than vacuum equipped cars.
Even with a stalled engine, I can stop pretty hard and the GNs did not come with an accumulator. The only downside is mine developed a leak at 150,000 miles that pretty much ruined the carpet. It was slow, at first the carpet seemed like it was getting dirty quickly but I finally realized it was oil going underneath and soaking up to the top. The only other bad thing I can think of and it's not bad at all is a couple extra hoses in the engine bay.
My dad is also running a hydroboost in his stageII GN.
Even with a stalled engine, I can stop pretty hard and the GNs did not come with an accumulator. The only downside is mine developed a leak at 150,000 miles that pretty much ruined the carpet. It was slow, at first the carpet seemed like it was getting dirty quickly but I finally realized it was oil going underneath and soaking up to the top. The only other bad thing I can think of and it's not bad at all is a couple extra hoses in the engine bay.
My dad is also running a hydroboost in his stageII GN.
Lee Thompson
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Hb
2 thumbs up for HB.
2 thumbs up for HB.
