What is the oil's route through the motor?
- Thread starter Jon01
- Start date
Here's a schematic of the oil flow through the pump and timing chain cover:
http://pages.prodigy.net/buickv6/_images/oil pump schematic.pdf
As it goes into the block from the timing chain cover, it takes an immediate 90deg turn (where the oil pressure sender/turbo oil feed line screws into the block), which is one great place to do a little porting.
It then angles up and over towards the #1 cam bearing. You can see it here: http://pages.prodigy.net/buickv6/_images/cam brg wear 1.jpg
It's the bulge over the "6109".
At the #1 cam bearing it splits into 3 paths:
a. turns up, then turns back to go down the pass side oil gallery. These turns are also easy to reach and therefore a good place to do some porting
b. turns down and goes to the #1 main. You can see the bulge of this passage in the above picture as it angles down from the cam bearing to the #1 main.
c. goes around the #1 cam bearing to the drivers side oil gallery.
The pass side gallery feeds the mains (which then goes on to the rods), as well as the pass side lifters.
The drivers side gallery only feeds the drivers side lifters and the #2, #3, and #4 cam bearings.
I think that's the basics. There are some details concerning the flow around the #1 cam bearing, '86/'87 engines have a groove around the outside of the bearing in the block to do this job, while earlier engines did it via a groove in the #1 cam journal, not sure what other details are of particular interest. See here for a picture of the groove in the block:
http://pages.prodigy.net/buickv6/_images/cam brg bore 1.jpg
Mine has some goop in the groove due to some oil system modifications I made.
John
http://pages.prodigy.net/buickv6/_images/oil pump schematic.pdf
As it goes into the block from the timing chain cover, it takes an immediate 90deg turn (where the oil pressure sender/turbo oil feed line screws into the block), which is one great place to do a little porting.
It then angles up and over towards the #1 cam bearing. You can see it here: http://pages.prodigy.net/buickv6/_images/cam brg wear 1.jpg
It's the bulge over the "6109".
At the #1 cam bearing it splits into 3 paths:
a. turns up, then turns back to go down the pass side oil gallery. These turns are also easy to reach and therefore a good place to do some porting
b. turns down and goes to the #1 main. You can see the bulge of this passage in the above picture as it angles down from the cam bearing to the #1 main.
c. goes around the #1 cam bearing to the drivers side oil gallery.
The pass side gallery feeds the mains (which then goes on to the rods), as well as the pass side lifters.
The drivers side gallery only feeds the drivers side lifters and the #2, #3, and #4 cam bearings.
I think that's the basics. There are some details concerning the flow around the #1 cam bearing, '86/'87 engines have a groove around the outside of the bearing in the block to do this job, while earlier engines did it via a groove in the #1 cam journal, not sure what other details are of particular interest. See here for a picture of the groove in the block:
http://pages.prodigy.net/buickv6/_images/cam brg bore 1.jpg
Mine has some goop in the groove due to some oil system modifications I made.
John
Lee Thompson
New Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
oil
I/m pretty sure the cam bearings are feed from the pass. side galley. I believe the drivers side feeds the drivers side lifters only.
I/m pretty sure the cam bearings are feed from the pass. side galley. I believe the drivers side feeds the drivers side lifters only.
hmmm, I thought the V-8s fed the cam bearings from the pass side gallery, but I thought the V-6's were fed from the drivers side. The Ruggles thing I have mentions installing the cam bearings with the feed hole in the 5 o'clock position as viewed from the front of the block. I'll have to go out and look at my old motor...
John
John
HellOnWheels
HellOnWheels
- Joined
- Feb 3, 2002
Oil feeds to the driver side from the front cam bearing bore groove (upper half of bore if memory serves..).
HellOnWheels
HellOnWheels
John,
Looks like you filled the oiling groove in the block.
http://pages.prodigy.net/buickv6/_images/cam brg bore 1.jpg
Did you do this in leu of welding up the groove in the cam journal? Talked to T/A yesterday and they suggested using JBweld on the cam journal. They don't like the idea of heating the cam. I don't like the idea of useing JBweld on the cam to much. Your route looks better.
Thanks in advance,
Looks like you filled the oiling groove in the block.
http://pages.prodigy.net/buickv6/_images/cam brg bore 1.jpg
Did you do this in leu of welding up the groove in the cam journal? Talked to T/A yesterday and they suggested using JBweld on the cam journal. They don't like the idea of heating the cam. I don't like the idea of useing JBweld on the cam to much. Your route looks better.
Thanks in advance,
Jeff -
Yes, I (or rather, my machine shop) did fill in the groove in the block. Now I wish I hadn't.
The whole story:
On the one hand you have the Ruggles cam bearing mods. Ruggles developed this before the '86/'87 motors came out, so he had no groove underneath the #1 cam bearing to deal with. At that time the oil path to the drivers side gallery was through a hole in the #1 cam bearing (at 9 o'clock), around the groove in the #1 journal, and out another hole in the #1 cam bearing (at 3 o'clock). Ruggles used smaller holes in the #1 cam bearing to restrict oil to the drivers side gallery, with the aim of getting more oil to the rods and mains.
Then comes the '86/'87 motors, which have the groove underneath the #1 cam bearing. I understand that the stock cams had no groove in the #1 cam journal. Oil flow to the drivers side gallery was around the cam bearing, not around the cam journal like it had been.
So I was rebuilding my engine. I wanted to do the Ruggles cam bearing mods. All replacement cams have the groove in the #1 journal to make them compatible with the older engines. So I was going to do the thing with the smaller oil holes in the cam bearings, and let the oil flow around the cam journal. If you don't fill in the groove though, oil flows around the outside of the cam bearing as well as through the cam bearing holes and around the #1 journal. Two oil paths to the drivers side gallery instead of one. So, on the later block, if you want the smaller cam bearing holes to work, you have to fill in the groove. So that's what I did.
Fast forward a few thousand miles. Pulled my econo roller cam as a preventative measure, and found some #1 cam bearing wear. Did more research, decided to install one of TA Perfs hipo cam bearings. These are grooved on the outside, and the #1 bearing has only 1 hole instead of 2. After thinking about this for a while, I decided this is the better way to go. In essence, keep things like the factory changed them to in '86.
If I was to start all over again, I would have this setup:
- I would *not* fill in the groove under the cam bearing
- I would use the TA Perf cam bearings
- I would fill in the groove in my replacement cams #1 journal
This would duplicate the '86 and later setup. I think the extra surface area available on the #1 bearing (since you don't have that groove in the journal) is worth more than restricting flow to the drivers side gallery. I think in the end you'll lose more oil pressure from a worn #1 cam bearing than you will from the lifters/cam bearings on the drivers side gallery.
That being said, I've never checked to see how the groove in the #1 journal could be filled in. Someone on this board said something about a crank repair shop filling his in, but I never checked into that. I would have thought that JB Weld would be a bad idea, but if Mike T at T/A Perf said it was okay I'm not going to say different!
To sum up my long story, there's two ways to go: oil around the outside of the cam journal, or oil around the outside of the cam bearing. (Or both together) I started out with the first one, which is why my groove is filled in, but then went to the 2nd one, which I think is the better way. Sounds like Mike T is suggesting the 2nd way to you as well.
You don't have to fill in the groove in the cam journal though. You can use the TA Perf bearing, which just has one hole, and leave the groove under the bearing alone. This will give you most of the benefit (with the lowest amount of effort too!), just not as much benefit as filling in the cam journal too. That's essentially the setup I have now.
John
Yes, I (or rather, my machine shop) did fill in the groove in the block. Now I wish I hadn't.
The whole story:
On the one hand you have the Ruggles cam bearing mods. Ruggles developed this before the '86/'87 motors came out, so he had no groove underneath the #1 cam bearing to deal with. At that time the oil path to the drivers side gallery was through a hole in the #1 cam bearing (at 9 o'clock), around the groove in the #1 journal, and out another hole in the #1 cam bearing (at 3 o'clock). Ruggles used smaller holes in the #1 cam bearing to restrict oil to the drivers side gallery, with the aim of getting more oil to the rods and mains.
Then comes the '86/'87 motors, which have the groove underneath the #1 cam bearing. I understand that the stock cams had no groove in the #1 cam journal. Oil flow to the drivers side gallery was around the cam bearing, not around the cam journal like it had been.
So I was rebuilding my engine. I wanted to do the Ruggles cam bearing mods. All replacement cams have the groove in the #1 journal to make them compatible with the older engines. So I was going to do the thing with the smaller oil holes in the cam bearings, and let the oil flow around the cam journal. If you don't fill in the groove though, oil flows around the outside of the cam bearing as well as through the cam bearing holes and around the #1 journal. Two oil paths to the drivers side gallery instead of one. So, on the later block, if you want the smaller cam bearing holes to work, you have to fill in the groove. So that's what I did.
Fast forward a few thousand miles. Pulled my econo roller cam as a preventative measure, and found some #1 cam bearing wear. Did more research, decided to install one of TA Perfs hipo cam bearings. These are grooved on the outside, and the #1 bearing has only 1 hole instead of 2. After thinking about this for a while, I decided this is the better way to go. In essence, keep things like the factory changed them to in '86.
If I was to start all over again, I would have this setup:
- I would *not* fill in the groove under the cam bearing
- I would use the TA Perf cam bearings
- I would fill in the groove in my replacement cams #1 journal
This would duplicate the '86 and later setup. I think the extra surface area available on the #1 bearing (since you don't have that groove in the journal) is worth more than restricting flow to the drivers side gallery. I think in the end you'll lose more oil pressure from a worn #1 cam bearing than you will from the lifters/cam bearings on the drivers side gallery.
That being said, I've never checked to see how the groove in the #1 journal could be filled in. Someone on this board said something about a crank repair shop filling his in, but I never checked into that. I would have thought that JB Weld would be a bad idea, but if Mike T at T/A Perf said it was okay I'm not going to say different!
To sum up my long story, there's two ways to go: oil around the outside of the cam journal, or oil around the outside of the cam bearing. (Or both together) I started out with the first one, which is why my groove is filled in, but then went to the 2nd one, which I think is the better way. Sounds like Mike T is suggesting the 2nd way to you as well.
You don't have to fill in the groove in the cam journal though. You can use the TA Perf bearing, which just has one hole, and leave the groove under the bearing alone. This will give you most of the benefit (with the lowest amount of effort too!), just not as much benefit as filling in the cam journal too. That's essentially the setup I have now.
John
Thank you John. I ordered the T/A bearing set yesterday. I was running the Durabond race bearings with friction coating. The front bearing had scuffed through the friction coating after 12k miles, but generally looked pretty good. I really don't much like the JBweld idea even though it may be just fine. I think I will get the billet roller spray welded as opposed to the JBweld.
Thanks again,
Thanks again,
Haven't forgotten this, I just haven't had it done yet. I have been doing some diging on oil mod (thank you for your responses) and the cam is on the growing list of oil system mods I plan to do. I promise to update as soon as I can. By the way........this is for a steel billet roller cam.
Thx,
Thx,
Hello John,
I talked to my motor guy today about spray welding the front journal shut. Ends up he will probably tig weld it as opposed to the spray weld. I have a billet roller so tig is an option. He thinks the spray weld will actually put more heat into the cam then a tig if done right. Then the cam will have to be sent off to the crank shop to be ground down to size. The whole thing will be under $100 bucks. Probably $70ish when complete. Not too bad but considering the cost of a billet roller set up to begin with.....another $70 kinda sucks. Oh well, into it this far no reason to skimp now. I think I'm going to add an additional oil feed line to the back of the block too (like you had suggested in previous posts). I hope that will help address the bearing wear I was seeing on the two rear mains.
I talked to my motor guy today about spray welding the front journal shut. Ends up he will probably tig weld it as opposed to the spray weld. I have a billet roller so tig is an option. He thinks the spray weld will actually put more heat into the cam then a tig if done right. Then the cam will have to be sent off to the crank shop to be ground down to size. The whole thing will be under $100 bucks. Probably $70ish when complete. Not too bad but considering the cost of a billet roller set up to begin with.....another $70 kinda sucks. Oh well, into it this far no reason to skimp now.
I think I'm going to add an additional oil feed line to the back of the block too (like you had suggested in previous posts). I hope that will help address the bearing wear I was seeing on the two rear mains.Hey guys can I jump in on this. Seeing all the great discussion on the oiling system and routing it takes, is there any place thru the routing of the oil that could cause the oil to excessively leak internally?
John, we went round on my problem for quite some time. Well I just got the car running again and while warming it up I had great oil press, after driving it for awhile the oil pressure at idle slowly dropped down to between 5-7 psi.
This is after adding a KB booster plate, .001-.002 end play on the cover and adding a qt of Lucas to 10w30 oil. I also put in new pump gears and new pump cover. Thus my question.
I have decided to drive it the way it is and put tape over the oil press gage (it still really bugs me to death).
paul
John, we went round on my problem for quite some time. Well I just got the car running again and while warming it up I had great oil press, after driving it for awhile the oil pressure at idle slowly dropped down to between 5-7 psi.
This is after adding a KB booster plate, .001-.002 end play on the cover and adding a qt of Lucas to 10w30 oil. I also put in new pump gears and new pump cover. Thus my question.
I have decided to drive it the way it is and put tape over the oil press gage (it still really bugs me to death).
paul
Thanks for the info Jeff, that is good to know.
One of the local guys here is pondering the following mod to the engine he is rebuilding: block the existing hole that feeds the DS gallery from the #1 cam bearing. Pull out the two cam gallery plugs in the back of the engine and connect them with a line. That arrangement would have all the oil going down the PS gallery, feeding rods and mains. After those guys are fed the remainder will go over to the DS and feed those lifters and the 2/3/4 cam bearings. Interesting idea. Seems like a sound idea in concept, although some work required to put it into practice. Not sure how I'd fabricate the line to connect the two galleries. Anyway, if you or anyone else can think of some pros or cons to that arrangement, I'd like to hear it. I'm sure he would too.
paul, regarding internal leaks... There was a guy here in Houston that chased a low oil pressure problem for a long time. He finally found it on rebuild #4.
He and his machinist mostly disassembled his engine, plugged the main bearing holes (I think they flipped the bearings over), plugged a few other holes, and pressured the oil system up. Found a big leak between the block and the #1 cam bearing. Bored out the #1 cam bearing hole, installed a brass bushing (I think) and then a standard cam bearing, reassembled it all, and voila! No more oil pressure problems. A real bitch to find something like that.
I did something similar when I pulled my engine out 3 years ago or so, I just wanted to see what was going on. I put the engine on the stand, removed the timing cover, I don't remember what I did with the main bearing holes, but I did fab up a little plate to block off the oil pump supply and return passages on the block. Got a fitting or two to pressure up the oil system with my garden hose via the oil pressure sender hole. Saw a *lot* of water coming out from around the #1 cam bearing, not too much from other places. But at least it was from between the cam and the bearing, not from between the bearing and block! I decided that this was where I was losing my oil pressure. When I pulled my cam that bearing looked worn, but not as bad as what I figured it would after seeing that leak. Still, took it to the machine shop to have them go through it all and make sure. They didn't find anything else out of whack, so I think that's all it was.
To make a long story even longer, if your oil pressure is still low, either the pump isn't putting up enough for some reason, or the engine is using more for some reason. Sounds to me like you've done all you can with the pump. Which leaves the engine. Bearing clearances too big (I know you've checked that), some kind of weird leak, I don't know what else... I seem to remember that rod side clearance can be an important factor?
John
One of the local guys here is pondering the following mod to the engine he is rebuilding: block the existing hole that feeds the DS gallery from the #1 cam bearing. Pull out the two cam gallery plugs in the back of the engine and connect them with a line. That arrangement would have all the oil going down the PS gallery, feeding rods and mains. After those guys are fed the remainder will go over to the DS and feed those lifters and the 2/3/4 cam bearings. Interesting idea. Seems like a sound idea in concept, although some work required to put it into practice. Not sure how I'd fabricate the line to connect the two galleries. Anyway, if you or anyone else can think of some pros or cons to that arrangement, I'd like to hear it. I'm sure he would too.
paul, regarding internal leaks... There was a guy here in Houston that chased a low oil pressure problem for a long time. He finally found it on rebuild #4.
He and his machinist mostly disassembled his engine, plugged the main bearing holes (I think they flipped the bearings over), plugged a few other holes, and pressured the oil system up. Found a big leak between the block and the #1 cam bearing. Bored out the #1 cam bearing hole, installed a brass bushing (I think) and then a standard cam bearing, reassembled it all, and voila! No more oil pressure problems. A real bitch to find something like that.
I did something similar when I pulled my engine out 3 years ago or so, I just wanted to see what was going on. I put the engine on the stand, removed the timing cover, I don't remember what I did with the main bearing holes, but I did fab up a little plate to block off the oil pump supply and return passages on the block. Got a fitting or two to pressure up the oil system with my garden hose via the oil pressure sender hole. Saw a *lot* of water coming out from around the #1 cam bearing, not too much from other places. But at least it was from between the cam and the bearing, not from between the bearing and block! I decided that this was where I was losing my oil pressure. When I pulled my cam that bearing looked worn, but not as bad as what I figured it would after seeing that leak. Still, took it to the machine shop to have them go through it all and make sure. They didn't find anything else out of whack, so I think that's all it was.
To make a long story even longer, if your oil pressure is still low, either the pump isn't putting up enough for some reason, or the engine is using more for some reason. Sounds to me like you've done all you can with the pump. Which leaves the engine. Bearing clearances too big (I know you've checked that), some kind of weird leak, I don't know what else... I seem to remember that rod side clearance can be an important factor?
John
I finally drug out my old block from it's resting place yesterday. Lee was right, the 2,3,4 cam bearings are fed from the passenger side, not the drivers side like I thought. The position is weird though, looks like the feed holes intersect the passages going down to the mains? Can anyone confirm that? I figured they would intersect the gallery, but it looked to me like the holes were at the wrong angle for that.
Another note, man did that #1 cam bearing look good. Almost zero wear to the naked eye. And this on a 100k mile engine that had spun a bearing and was then driven another 20 miles or so until it *really* cratered! Everytime I've looked at my rebuilds, they've always had a lot of wear right there. Wish I could get this thing to work as good as the General did.
John
Another note, man did that #1 cam bearing look good. Almost zero wear to the naked eye. And this on a 100k mile engine that had spun a bearing and was then driven another 20 miles or so until it *really* cratered! Everytime I've looked at my rebuilds, they've always had a lot of wear right there. Wish I could get this thing to work as good as the General did.
John
