What's a Busch North Moter worth?

[ATEUUP]

I have been searching out a stage motor and I've finaly found one. The motor is complete and was professionally built about 3 years ago. The guy races the north series and says it was $29k new. It has only one race on it. Aluminum heads, intake, etc. It is set up for a dry sump. For $29k it should have good bottom end components.

I had him verify the casting number as 25500153. It's a Stage II On Center.

What would the motor be worth?

Any advice/ help would be great.

Greg

 

[GNSCOTT]

i paid $2800 for the same motor and have seen them go for up to 6 grand. Make sure it is an even fire crank, and keep in mind you are going to need new pistons and cam at the least. Get in writing that the motor is in good working condition ie. no cracks in the block , ready to go crank, no cracked rods etc..

 

[Chuck Leeper]

BUSCH ENGINE??

ALSO:[Assuming this is to be a turbo application] Be sure to CONFIRM in writing what the compression is!! The Busch engines were in the 14 to1 range, and as such had the heads milled to a small CC,[low 40's] and will not work w/ a turbo, even w/ dished pistons..[That's why alot of us look for the ASA engines at 9:1]
Also, these are stage 2 heads and as such will require ALOT of turbo to work well on the street...
A dry sump WILL NOT work in a stock GN chassis w/out ALOT of re-engineering on the pump location, etc.
Bottom line: don't be fooled by the price comparisons they lay on you. This stuff is WORTHLESS to the stock car community and as such, is selling at LOW prices compared to new...
even tho he said "new" a short time ago doesn't mean it was not wounded B4 he got it.. LOTS to look at when buying these engines.. block updates, head updates, different cranks, titanium valves that are junk for what U want to do.. The list goes on and on!!

For a street application, U will wind up w/ the block, crank, rods and alot of stuff U don't/can't use..BTDT...

 

[ATEUUP]

Thanks guys, I appreciate the advise!

Here are the questions I'm left with...

How do I verify that it's a even-fire crank?

Can convert the block to a wet sump?

Someone had posted that they had lowered the C/R to 9 to1 by using a shorter rod and a custom piston. Is that possable if the heads are small cc?

I guess the bottom line is that I have to see exactly what he has before I can value the engine.

Greg

 

[GNSCOTT]

to verify even/odd fire, take the oil pan off and if 2 rods share the same journal its odd, on an even fire they will all be on seperate journals. Don't go by the distributor. realfastv6 on this board bought one with an even fire distributor,only later to open it up to find an odd fire crank. I'd call RPE in west hartford CT and ask him about the compression and what will work. I personally don't know much about compression ratios/piston/rod length, but he told me i can use my busch stage 2 heads and my 6.5 rods. My total engine build from him including 8 pistons, dutt. oiling system, front cover, cam,valves is just over $5k.

 

[Chuck Leeper]

BBBBZZZZTTT!

It's the odd fire crank that has 2 rods on a common journal!! The even fire has the "split pin" throws, just like the production engine crank.
A short rod allows the pin to be moved down on the piston and allows for more dish.. Now you can buy new rods too..

You can convert the block to wet sump.. Most likely will have to use an external pickup if it's a late block without the boss inside the oil pan area.. Good choice there is the Duttweiller pump.

 

[NJTurbo]

There was a sweet Stage 2 off-center twin turbo on e-bay last week. $15k took the whole deal. Even if the guy want's $20k it is too much. Call Conley he has a on-center 4 barrel set-up $7500.00.

 

[S2V6RACER]

There's a stage II 3.8 stage II headed motor (complete) for sale down at Aggressive performance. You'll need to call Bruce on the $$ but I know it's competitive and it was built by PTE. I think the motor is on GNTTYPE.ORG in the parts for sale section still.

I'd be all over that one. I have seen the motor and it is painted up real nice. If I didn't buy a new truck I'd have it right now.

Ted

 

[NJTurbo]

I agree with Ted keep looking they are out there, hard to find however i would not pay more than 3k for a bare block. Call Ron at Rons custom Auto he has a phone number to a guy in Ohio he has 1 stage 2 off-center virgin wants $3500.00 for bare block no machine work done. S.......t i lost the guys number when i found mine.

 

[GNSCOTT]

oops!! I got em mixed up...not too uncommon for me

 

[RealFastV6]

Originally posted by GNSCOTT
to verify even/odd fire, take the oil pan off and if 2 rods share the same journal its odd, on an even fire they will all be on seperate journals. Don't go by the distributor. realfastv6 on this board bought one with an even fire distributor,only later to open it up to find an odd fire crank.

Yeah, what he said.

 

[geno]

I know were 2 on center complete 153 ARCA motors are
$4000.00 each undamaged and fresh.

 

[TurboDiverArt]

Can convert the block to a wet sump?

I guess the bottom line is that I have to see exactly what he has before I can value the engine.

Greg [/B][/QUOTE]

Greg,

On the subject of oiling. You can run an external oil pump without it being a dry sump. You don?t need to do any modifying to the GN body/frame. I believe modifying an on-center block for an in oil pan pump is possible but is a lot of machining. I'm not sure all on-center blocks can be machined for this. My motor is a crate Duttweiler motor, plenum to oil pan, flex-plate to water pump. Ken fab'd up an 8 quart oil pan and plumbed in 10an lines that the belt driven oil pump drawn from, there is a by-bass connected to the pump that feeds the external oil filter and then into the block and turbo. I installed an oil cooler between the pump and oil filter. This is an option vs. trying to have the block milled and drilled to accept a stock oil pump. If you are going on-center I highly suggest an electric water pump. That with a good fan and radiator will drop temps in the pits about 10 degrees in a few minutes. I never get the car above 165 while in the staging lanes and rarely above 190 by the time I cross the finish line. At Bristol last week I was crossing the finish line below 180!! Everyone thought I was hot lapping the car but I was actually waiting until the car cooled to 150 before going back to the lanes, this only took about 10 minutes. Only reason I pulled up to my trailer was to give the battery a quick 10-minute 12amp charge (or to fix exhaust leaks, alternator drive bents, alternator shaft bolts, etc?. L). Usually temps are back down to about 170 by the time I get back to the pits. You just need to make sure you have a good alternator and charge you battery between races. I have done 4 races in a row without charging the battery externally without a problem but our cars (especially the fel pro) likes a lot of voltage so it's best to charge the battery between races. Small new 1000W gas generators cost about $150 so they are cheap!

Also, with the crank. I?m not sure about this one but I thought the Busch series engines used a shorter stroke crank which delivered higher RPM?s? I could be wrong but if this is the case, the crank can be used but anticipate having the motor run higher than normal RPM?s.

Hope this helps,

 

[RealFastV6]

Originally posted by TurboDiverArt
Also, with the crank. I?m not sure about this one but I thought the Busch series engines used a shorter stroke crank which delivered higher RPM?s? I could be wrong but if this is the case, the crank can be used but anticipate having the motor run higher than normal RPM?s.

All the Busch motors I've seen are 3.59+, mine was 3.625. It seems its mostly the indy cranks that are de-stroked.

 

[Mac in SD]

Re: small -chamber S2 heads...well, mine were 42 cc, and with my Diamond Racing dished pistons, 3.590 crank, and 6.5 inch rods, it came out to 9:1 CR. As far as needing a huge turbo for S2 heads on the street, I'm running a 62-1 with ported S2's with 2.125 intakes, and I can't keep the tires from going up in smoke at any speed up to 55 mph. In fact, I wouldn't mind losing a little bottom end when I step up to a 76 or 80 Q-trim.

 

[NJTurbo]

Originally posted by Mac in SD
Re: small -chamber S2 heads...well, mine were 42 cc, and with my Diamond Racing dished pistons, 3.590 crank, and 6.5 inch rods, it came out to 9:1 CR. As far as needing a huge turbo for S2 heads on the street, I'm running a 62-1 with ported S2's with 2.125 intakes, and I can't keep the tires from going up in smoke at any speed up to 55 mph. In fact, I wouldn't mind losing a little bottom end when I step up to a 76 or 80 Q-trim.

SWEET

 

[TurboDiverArt]

Originally posted by RealFastV6
All the Busch motors I've seen are 3.59+, mine was 3.625. It seems its mostly the indy cranks that are de-stroked.

Ahhh, good point. Think my brain farted there for a moment!

Thanks,

 

[$pit6]

Chuck the bush stuff will work with a dished piston.I bought mine
built and never fired up.44cc heads and a dish JE,conp.worked
out at 9.6:1 This is were I want to see a S2 turbo motor,built 2
race.I feel pro tree on a break you dont want to wait to come on
boost.I want to hit the break,hammer and look out.I do think your
correct for a street/strip S2.I dont want this comp. on the street.
JMO