no2 to spool turbo

[Dusty Bradford]

I don't think I said, "flow 310 in the real world". I'm saying that the software required me to raise the head flow numbers beyond real world head flow numbers (210) to get the sim to match real world results. At this point, I have absolutely no idea what the 'exact' real world flow bench numbers are. I thought they were 210. That's what the head porter told me, but what do you think? Do you think he was possibly wrong? Or, do you think it's possible to squeeze out a high 8 pass with 1.835/1.5 valves flowing at 210 on the intake with 28 psi boost? You have much more real world experience than I.

You were pointing out that your magic intake and exhaust design has somehow taken a head that flows 210 on the bench and made it perform as if it flows 310. I'm saying it's something else causing the #'s to be off....other than pulse tuning. If the pulse tuning was making such a dramatic difference as to increase the head flow 100cfm, the car would be much faster at your boost and bp level.

I think it's real simple. The sim can't accurately model your engine design.

I'm off to the track for testing...ya'll have fun.

 

[John Wilde]

Git R Done Dusty!

 

[Alky V6]

You were pointing out that your magic intake and exhaust design has somehow taken a head that flows 210 on the bench and made it perform as if it flows 310. I'm saying it's something else causing the #'s to be off....other than pulse tuning. If the pulse tuning was making such a dramatic difference as to increase the head flow 100cfm, the car would be much faster at your boost and bp level.

I think it's real simple. The sim can't accurately model your engine design.

I'm off to the track for testing...ya'll have fun.

I agree. That's the point I was trying to make. The big question is why?

 

[Bent6]

I would agree, provided you have "the chasis setup for 8 sec assault", "the AMS1000 isn't setup for Dummies", "the rear downforce wing" is adjusted correctly, the "launch strategy is incorporating the BOV", the "ultimate turbo anti-lag system" is adjuted correctly, the "nitrous/methanol anti-lag syetem afterburner" spools the turbo quick enough, and the track loads the engine correctly so it doesn't blow up.

That's funny - I don't care who you are!

Pissing matches on here are sometimes amusing to read - especially when there's one guy who seems to be pissin' into the wind.

The biggest thing I can agree with after reading all this mess is the fact that an offer has been made for a dyno session with a well respected tuner. And yes, Cal helps with the tuning on my stuff too FWIW. Screw all the SIMS, fuel calculations, RWHP, BHP, theories, coulda, shoulda, woulda, etc. Like someone said - none of the fast cars going around spewing off HP numbers as few have been on a chassis dyno and even fewer have been on an engine dyno. They can all do the math based on track performances to come up with a good estimation.

Bottom line I see here is put up or shut up if your going to say your junk makes X amount of HP without a dyno sheet or time slip to back it up. For example, I've got a LSX based 455 with twins under construction now. It will be broken in and then were going to run it on the wick on a DTS dyno so I will have a dyno sheet to back up the numbers. On second thought, I think I'll skip that and just use a SIM program to come up with 3500 hp - should put me in the 5s. Look out boys! :biggrin:

 

[antiquettype]

turbo

I have read this whole thread, and my head is still spinning. Not because it is over my head, but because the story has changed on most details. I did learn one thing though and I plan to proceed with it.
I am going to do away with the piston engine all together and mount a Pratt&Whitney turbo fan to the roof of the car. That way I can put ALL the fuel to the turbo. It will spool horribly, be terribly inefficient with fuel, I won't have to worry about drivetrain losses, and I will never have to worry about being called out to a chassis dyno. What's more, I will never have to worry about leaving reciprocating parts on the track because one of 15 relays failed. I can tell all the people that know they could whip my butt that it's a turbine thing you wouldn't understand. It is truly the ultimate turbo car. The problem is I am not double jointed, I can hardly scratch an itch on my back, let alone....

 

[baadgn]

What do i think? I think your car shouldn't blow up if you use that dyno since it is within 2% of the track. 8.29 with 888rwhp is getting it done, car must be light or has a real POS convertor. Let's get back to the BUICK content of this thread, ie Don's car..

You agree with me that Don's car is making at least as much rwhp as yours, yet he is using a stock block, 880hp turbo, and 446#/hour of fuel with a race convertor that spools on a pro-tree without NOS assist. Please explain why he is able to have the same rwhp and much, much less bhp?

Edit: I am going to spend the rest of the day with my family. I'll try and respond tonight.

what trans is don running I know witch he's not

 

[Alky V6]

Wow. I would never have thought that putting a hp number in my sig would have caused so much commosion.
You all are welcome to speculate all you want. I won't be putting my car on a dyno just to ease someone elses curiousity, unless they want to pay me very well for it. You can bet that if I was curious enough about it, I would do it, and maybe at some point in the future I might, but at this point in time, I'm very comfortable with my results. Just like most of you are comfortable about your results and don't feel compelled to throw your car on a dyno just because some big wig nags you to, or has a question mark in their head about your car.

One other thing. Why do some of you feel that I should be honored to have another tuner nosing around in my stuff? I've been pretty forthcoming with procedures and ideas I use on my car here on this site, and now everyone wants to have me throw my car on a dyno and nose around even deeper?
Cal charges a lot to share his knowledge and obviously keeps a lot of what he knows very secret, yet everyone thinks I should be willing to jump through hoops to have another tuner nosing around in my stuff as if what I'm doing has no value. Just because most of you don't get what I'm saying or doing with my car doesn't mean it's worthless and 'free for all' to a point that I'm going to take the time to throw the car on a dyno for you and have someone else nosing around in my laptop. Most of you just aren't going to get that because you're not tuners.
If you're looking for a show, come up to the track, sit in the spectator stands and watch the car make a pass. That's all your going to get. Especially, this crowd.

If Cal is truly interested in helping for free, like he's making it seem, then he's welcome to help here and now, and it doesn't have to be at a dyno shop. The only thing I've seen from him up to this point are questions and pure rediculing.

Am I really supposed to feel honored to have a fella that takes pleasure in rediculing me in this fashion, nose around in my tuneup?
It cracks me up when some of you state, Wow! Cal is willing to watch you put your car on the dyno and see what kind of number it makes so he hopefully can redicule you even more than he already does. You should feel honored!
Unbelievable.

 

[jasjamz]

Don, you're going to get in trouble for saying that about Cal. He is a vendor. He gets paid to tune and sell parts. He is not obligated to help people or share his methods or secrets of making the buicks fast. You do it cause you're a nice guy and I appreciate it greatly. I wish you would have used these post to keep your nitrous 101 thread going. I have a bunch of friends reading and learning from it. They don't even own buicks but use nitrous on their cars. I'm on my way to the track now to put that front pump you did for me and some of those nitrous tips to work.

 

[Alky V6]

Don, you're going to get in trouble for saying that about Cal. He is a vendor. He gets paid to tune and sell parts. He is not obligated to help people or share his methods or secrets of making the buicks fast. You do it cause you're a nice guy and I appreciate it greatly. I wish you would have used these post to keep your nitrous 101 thread going. I have a bunch of friends reading and learning from it. They don't even own buicks but use nitrous on their cars. I'm on my way to the track now to put that front pump you did for me and some of those nitrous tips to work.

I know he's a vendor. I'm not new to this board. Did I say something wrong? Or, are we supposed to let vendors ridicule us?

 

[HighPSI]

I apologize if I came across as ridiculing you. I have attempted to help you in other threads. When you told me you start most threads with the idea of treating it as a diary or Blog of your experiences with the car and not really wanting my help, I kindly stepped aside and put you on "ignore". That was until you accused me of cheating in this thread: http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/tu.../327098-ultimate-turbo-anti-lag-system-5.html
What was even more suprising was that you stated "If I were competing in the same class, I'd be demanding an inspection. Probably because, if I were running in that class, I'd be hiding a system too." That statement really damaged your credibility in my eyes.
In this thread we have a diference in opionion on your hp. We have somewhat agree that you are making around 800-850 rwhp. The diference is in your bhp. Since bhp isn't as important to me as track performance, I will let this go.

BTW: If you did want some advice from me, look at the data on Tony, Don and Ted's cars. I think you will see where to improve your program.

 

[Alky V6]

Something more in line with the subject of this thread.

Who would have ever thought that it was possible to use a 400 hp shot of nitrous on a V6?

How do you think I was able to figure out that a V6 could take a 400 hp shot?
Also, keep in mind this is a 400 shot while on the transbrake, against a relatively low stall TC.
Do you think I just decided one day to throw it on and let her rip???
The answer to that is, no. A lot of careful sim work and a lot of analysis of the feedback was done to see how it might be possible. And now, because of a sim, the world is able to see a V6 take a 400 hp shot of nitrous against a tight TC on the transbrake.

Honestly, I don't think I would have ever tried it if it wasn't for the engine simulator. Some of you may think that is worthless tech.

I think it's priceless.

 

[Alky V6]

I apologize if I came across as ridiculing you. I have attempted to help you in other threads. When you told me you start most threads with the idea of treating it as a diary or Blog of your experiences with the car and not really wanting my help, I kindly stepped aside and put you on "ignore". That was until you accused me of cheating in this thread: http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/tu.../327098-ultimate-turbo-anti-lag-system-5.html
What was even more suprising was that you stated "If I were competing in the same class, I'd be demanding an inspection. Probably because, if I were running in that class, I'd be hiding a system too." That statement really damaged your credibility in my eyes.
In this thread we have a diference in opionion on your hp. We have somewhat agree that you are making around 800-850 rwhp. The diference is in your bhp. Since bhp isn't as important to me as track performance, I will let this go.

BTW: If you did want some advice from me, look at the data on Tony, Don and Ted's cars. I think you will see where to improve your program.

Cal, when I insinuated that someone might be using nitrous, that wasn't aimed directly at you. You're welcome to go back and study those threads to see if I mentioned your name directly.
Do you babysit the cars for these guys? Do you keep guard on them so that no one else could possibly tamper with them? Do you think that you are always the only person that has his fingers on these cars? If the answer is yes, then I hope they're paying you a lot. You deserve it. Even still, a teardown and inspection procedure is a very important part of any class racing program. If someone is running a class racing program with no teardown and inspection program, I certainly wouldn't compete in it. That is simply inviting cheating.
Cal. I would hope that even you are smart enough to realize that.

And, to say that you think less of me because I would be tempted to cheat in a situation where there was no effective inspection program in place to ensure that everyone was playing on an even playing field,... well,... I can only take that as a compliment. Most, if not all of the famous people in racing have prided themselves about how they got away with or were caught pushing the rules. In my opinion, that would be the crew chief's and tuner's primary job.

If procedures are not in place to keep the playing field level, the best of us are going to find ways to take advantage of that. That's simply how competition is. Come on, now. I'm just a test and tuner, and even I realize that simple fact.

 

[Alky V6]

Cal. You claim that you didn't mean to come across as ridiculing, but did just that anyway. This isn't the first time you've apologized to me for this. I would suggest you look up the meaning of the word and study it well. You might become a better person for it. We're already clear that you don't cheat.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

Something more in line with the subject of this thread.

Who would have ever thought that it was necessary to use a 400 hp shot of nitrous on a V6 simply for spoolup?

I think that's more like it

 

[John Wilde]

Let's take this thread back to its technical discussion origins. We have pm, email and phones for these other more personal subjects.

 

[Alky V6]

Like I stated, some will feel that a 400 shot of nitrous on a V6 is useless tech. I simply showed that it's possible.
Those that have a need will take a small piece of what I've shown is possible and use it to further their own project. We may never know how many have actually done this because who would want to post here and face the seemingly non-stop ridiculing from people who you would hope were here to help people. Not attempt to bring them down.

jasjamz. I hope that everything works out for the best with your project. Maybe someday we can all enjoy a write up on what you're doing.

 

[Otto J]

Who would have ever thought that it was possible to use a 400 hp shot of nitrous on a V6?

You have proved you can use a 400 hp shot to AID YOUR SPOOLUP on a V6,lets see ya let it hang out through the pass!!!

I can't believe it stil takes a 400 shot,that must be one TIGHT TIGHT convertor, Is it still a Chance convertor?
From past expierience with the Chance convertors on V6 Turbo cars
I can tell you this,It spooled TERRIBLY and didnt have the same slip up top at all.
Right Ted?
With that said hte V8 guys love them,but I have yet to see one really nailed down on a V6.
Even if a PTC convertor didn't give you a NO Nitrous spoolup, wouldnt it be worth trying one to lessen the nitrous shot,spoolup time and give you a better more efficient top end charge?
I am figuring with your engine/turbo combo for Pro tree purposes may still like a shot,but i bet you could lower than 400 by half or better.

 

[Alky V6]

No, it's not a NC.
I've stated before that I will not be advertising the manufacturer of the TC due to the high chance of ridiculing. Some of you just can't seem to get it out of your blood.

What is the true value of a 400 hp rated shot when the system is paired with methanol?
I've tried to relay this countless times.

I get the impression that some still feel the engine is really seeing that total 400 rating. You're wrong.

 

[Otto J]

No, it's not a NC.
I've stated before that I will not be advertising the manufacturer of the TC due to the high chance of ridiculing. Some of you just can't seem to get it out of your blood.

What is the true value of a 400 hp rated shot when the system is paired with methanol?

I get the impression that some still feel the engine is really seeing that total 400 rating. You're wrong.

Sorry,i thought you still had your Chance convertor.

I guess the reason I believe its seeing 400 HP is that unless I read wrong you are using a 400 shot of nitrous,if your not getting 400 HP than why is it a 400 hp shot?

 

[Alky V6]

Sorry,i thought you still had your Chance convertor.

I guess the reason I believe its seeing 400 HP is that unless I read wrong you are using a 400 shot of nitrous,if your not getting 400 HP than why is it a 400 hp shot?

Typically, people rate the shot size of a nitrous system by the jet sizes being used. That is how I also rate the system.

The engine does not actually experience the true, full rating of the system due to reasons that I've covered numerous times before.

I once did an in depth study of how much hp the engine actually experiences. The answer is interesting and very complicated.