Is the racing dead?
- Thread starter Razor
- Start date
I think that's getting into conspiracy theory stuff there lol.
Traditionally the Buick events were for just buicks. Its easier to setup heads up classes when everyone has the same car. This is where these classes came into play. Imo, it should be simplified:
My wish list for classes and basic rules:
Tsa: bone stock appearing tr's
Tsr: anything goes, as long as its on street tires
Ths: 67 turbo, stock block, drag radials, a/c, 200, etc.
Tsm: stage 2 or stock block, 71 or smaller turbo, any trans, etc.
Tso: 88 turbo, stock style suspension, etc.
Basically this would break cars down to 11 sec (tsr), 10 sec (ths), 9 sec (tsm), 8 sec (tso). Tsa of course would be the class where cars will probably get faster and faster but would be interesting to see how far it goes.
Conspiracy? That would be simple to disprove. Just follow the money. Funny how no one wants to bring up the people or organizations behind these classes. That would be the first thing I would be looking at, if I had decided to race in a class.
Again, the top players will always get funnelled the lastest and greatest top secret parts or tuning secrets, making for an unfair playing field. The parts have to be taken out of the equation to make for a level playing field. Pinks All Out did a very good job of proving that. Just look at the variety there was.
Take a look at the video of these BUICK events. You always see the same top player names. Why is that? It's like watching a NHRA Pro event where you always see the same names. A person who is a late comer to class racing is going to have a difficult time breaking into the class and being competitive with these guys that have been working on it so long. I don't see any encouragement factor to get new blood into these classes. Unless the new blood is rich in green blood cells.
I have been reading and watching this thread and wasn't going to add any more than what has already been said.
Donnie, Not picking on you just making a point here.
Everyone should ask themselves how we are promoting/helping the Buick events. Have you been to every Buick event? Have you sponsored any events? Have you made money on any Buick owners here? If so, why not give something back? That is what I have to ask of every person in the Buick group. It's easy to sit on the sideline and complain and not help. It's not easy to get out, support, and give back to the hobby.
I personally have been to at least 90% of the events in the past 10 years. I personally pay money from my pocket back to the racers in TSM. I'm trying to make a difference and get our class back to where it used to be. Have I been successful? I don't know yet. We'll see after this year is up.
I don't get any special help/parts/tuning help. I pay what most everyone else pays for stuff. What I do have is a hard work ethic and a drive to be good at my hobby. I would hope everyone has that kind of drive but it's obvious that many do not. This isn't something that is just "Buick" related. It's everywhere. Hockey,Football, Basketball, & Baseball games are all fighting to fill seats in the US. Economy blah blah.. The economy is bad but doesn't stop you from your passions as has been posted earlier.
I'm sure I will get some flack for this but it's my gut feeling about the situation.
The only way to make racing even is Bracket or index racing.. But that is boring.. No reason to push yourself or your car to do better.
Heads up racing is where the excitement is.
Don,
For an example, tsm was started by Lonnie and Scott. Scott was never a vender. Lonnie builds transmissions but besides reliability, where would that cause him to make rules so he could sell more units? The rest of the rules are voted on by the racers. Now, that could allow a vendor to make the latest and greatest widget for that class, which would give that vendor an edge, but thats the beauty of capitalism
If a class demanded that every racer needed to have "x" on their car bought only from a certain person, then yes I see your point but that's not the case in any class. Now, I've done some circle track pit crewing and those guys are required to buy their gas and tires from the track. If that was the case for us class racers I'd call foul.
For an example, tsm was started by Lonnie and Scott. Scott was never a vender. Lonnie builds transmissions but besides reliability, where would that cause him to make rules so he could sell more units? The rest of the rules are voted on by the racers. Now, that could allow a vendor to make the latest and greatest widget for that class, which would give that vendor an edge, but thats the beauty of capitalism
If a class demanded that every racer needed to have "x" on their car bought only from a certain person, then yes I see your point but that's not the case in any class. Now, I've done some circle track pit crewing and those guys are required to buy their gas and tires from the track. If that was the case for us class racers I'd call foul.
Wow that is a crock... Really odd statement to make as well IMO...
There isn't a turbo any of these guys are running that you can't go buy from PTE just like they did... What kind of secret parts?
Just like Jason said some of these guys go to every event and give way more than they get...
The top guys bring the A game... Plain and simple...
Mike Licht
I was here first
- Joined
- May 23, 2001
Who are the originators, promoters, and/or sponsors for each of the different classes in the Racing Rules and Discussions section of this site? Basically, who are the driving forces behind each of these classes?
TSM I will go with Scott Simpson
TSO In it current form Chris Lyons?
TSA Richard Clark
THS Kip?
TSL Cal?
TSR Don't Know
This is how I remember it, if I am wrong someone post up
The only Vendor there is Cal and if we are going to be fair to him he was way more racer and way less vendor when he got involved with classes and rules. While there is no denieing that it has helped his business I do not believe there was any foul ply there. The vendors have had little or no say in rule making except one GSCA favored vendor that got his way more often than not at the expense of their class racing. This is where classes like TSL came from, people that could not or would not race thei GSCA rules. Why do you see the same guys? Because some guys quit for one reason or another and the guys who win are commited to the point of making it a job. If you want to win that is what it takes.
Mike
Don't worry about looking to be picking on me. I'm just trying to stir some grey matter up here. The more picking the better.
Have you tried index racing? The only people that are going to continue class racing are the people that can afford it. I think the general consensus is that people are being much more picky about where they spend their entertainment dollars. The whole idea is to attract more people to a racing event where more BUICK racers can afford to participate. It's a no brainer to me. Class racing should be put on the shelf. At least until the economy can bring it back.
Thats like saying we need to quit giving kids grades until they get smarter...
Heads up racing isn't about the most money... If so I guarantee you their would have been more TSM racing. It is about doing the right thing and using your head as much as the money factor...
Not everyone is going to want to race a pre selected number, it just doesn't satisfy the competitive nature of some people. Not to mention what it does the R&D and getting faster in the end...
You're kidding, right?
Why is it every so often, the latest turbo comes out that's touted to make more power than last generations. If you're a class racer you'd be foolish not to pay out the cash to upgrade to the latest and greatest,... right?
It's hard not to have some backroom deal with a top racer going on. I am not that naive. The temptation is there to supply a new innovation to a racer who is very popular in a particular class to promote sales. That's capitalism. That's how it is. Class racing is very cut throat. Don't shoot the messenger.
I'm sorry. I thought we were trying to figure out ways to promote BUICK racing in general. Not just the rich, smart, popular and famous.
Don I don't know you, and I know how things can be misconstrued when reading on the internet verses talking to people in person, but in some of your last few posts you have made some comments that bug me. You make it seem like all this Buick only stuff is evil, when all these people are out there making a place for Buick people to race against Buick's. There are plenty of other events in this world if people want to race against other makes then by all means GO DO IT. There are thousands of non-manufacturer specific races out there, I see no reason why anyone that actually wants to race (not bitch about why they don't want to race) can't go find a race.
The 1st thing I think you don't understand about Buick specific racing is the organizations that put on these Buick events are completely separate from the people that have invented or run the current Buick heads up classes that I have been around. I mean obviously they have to communicate for logistical reasons and etc, but someone comes up with a class that they think people will be interested in and the people running the events decide if they want that class at their event or not. There is all sorts of bracket racing at these events, I am 100% sure that enough people showed interest in index racing they would do that too (maybe interest is the wrong word, I'm talking about people that will actually come to the track, not talk about it on the internet).
Now the 2nd thing I feel like you don't understand is the people coming up with and/or running the heads up classes are people doing it for the love of the cars, there's no paycheck, or really anything much to gain out of it. On the contrary it seems as though most people that do it (this is over the course of years) get more people in the Buick community mad at them than appreciate the work they do. It's not like they are getting free entry to the race even, they are paying specators/racers just like everyone else.
TSM for example has been a fairly successful class (in Buick racing standards) for a lot of years, there's always lots of interest in it and the people that originally came up with the idea no longer have anything to do with it anymore and I can't say I blame them.
You asked earlier who was in charge of the different classes and when no one answered you said no one wants to bring it up who is behind the classes. I bet less than half the people on this board even know who came up with any of the classes that they talk about.
Bottom line is no one is making a bunch of money on Buick racing, not the organizations, not the people that come up with the rules, nobody. Also no one has any exclusive rights to these races so the simple fact is this. If any of you, ANY of you think you can do better than what we have and think that you can get people to show up and race (cuz without racers, there are no spectators, no nothing) then by god do it, I wish you luck because I'm sure there are people on this board that will tell you it ain't easy.
EDIT - Wow it took a long time to type that and several people responded before I got done, but looks to me like there are several of us on the same page.
Thanks for the post, Collin.
The reason why I'm asking these questions, comfortable or not to some of you, is because 'YOU GUYS' are the ones coming on here saying that participation is waning. I'm just making suggestions as to why and hope I'm stirring some grey matter. If you guys want BUICK racing to continue in the future, I suggest you guys come up with some concrete reasoning and solutions instead of criticizing my questions. It's called, looking further down the road. Looking at the forest through the trees.
The reason why I'm asking these questions, comfortable or not to some of you, is because 'YOU GUYS' are the ones coming on here saying that participation is waning. I'm just making suggestions as to why and hope I'm stirring some grey matter. If you guys want BUICK racing to continue in the future, I suggest you guys come up with some concrete reasoning and solutions instead of criticizing my questions. It's called, looking further down the road. Looking at the forest through the trees.
This is what someone needs to do. Announce an index style race event. Don't discuss it on the board. Just do it. I'm willing to bet it would turn out to be a hit. I know it was when it happened at our track, where simple bracket racing is the norm. I know next year people will be looking forward to the event, again.
We have our heavy hitters at our track, and they entered the fastest index class, which was 5.50-5.999. The few other quicker people were in the quick 8 event.
We have our heavy hitters at our track, and they entered the fastest index class, which was 5.50-5.999. The few other quicker people were in the quick 8 event.
Some backroom deal?
Have ever heard of a word called "SPONSORSHIP."
Furthermore NO ONE is making enough money off of Buicks these days to give a way free turbos.
Don't tell me bracket racing isn't cut throat either. We had a customer at the shop that spent as much if not more on bracket cars did most did on head up cars... That rabbit hole can be never ending as well...
We are. You are trying to kill heads up racing while only promoting bracket/index racing...
The day racing quits being head up is the day I quit...
Index racing is cool, I think you are missing the point here...They did it at the TB.com nats, I'm sure it was cool, I'm sure they will do it again...That has nothing to do with the heads up classes, people in here are acting like we can't do both and that's just not true.
The only thing you brought up that bothered me was the asking about the heads up classes and who was in charge...You were pretty clear (at least to me) that the class racing is bad, and that the people running it were doing damage to the community and that set me off.
If people want to bracket and index race rock on, give the people what they want, but the fact is they can do it now and we are still in here talking about attendance.
Exactly.
Why so if one improves that day and has the best run of his life, or prehaps the temp drops during the day and the air is better and you run 8.19:biggrin::biggrin: only to find out you lost:frown:
